Episode Transcript
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Hi, this is Rachel and recover. We're back with esther and she's going
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to tell the rest of her story. Esther, Um, you were telling
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us how this was impacting your kids
long term. Um, I think we
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were talking about boundaries. That's where
we left off. Yeah, Um,
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so trying to teach your kids about
boundaries is I think if if I could
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make any recommendations to anybody that has
kids in this situation, it is to
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learn all you can about, um, how to teach boundaries, how to
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have healthy boundaries, how to teach
boundaries to children, because sometimes how you
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teach to children is very, very
different than how you teach. How do
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you how you talk about them,
the words you use, uh, those
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are all very different for children than
it is for adults, and I think
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that there's a lot of information out
there now. There wasn't when I was
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going through all of my stuff because
the Internet was still fairly new. Um,
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resources were hard to find, they
were very costly, and now there's
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a lot of information out there on
how to parent your children and parent them
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into good uh emotional space and Um
be be uh strong with their own boundaries.
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So, Um, I still have
to maintain boundaries with some of my
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kids on conversations. I still have
to draw lines with them. Um.
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We still have a lot of those
conversations and trying to teach them how to
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have good boundaries and I do believe
that, Um, my kids are going
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to all come through this. I
feel at some point in their adult life
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they're going to recognize uh, I'm
hoping that as they get into their own
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healthy relationships. Um, they all
seem to desire healthy relationships and I'm hoping
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that they can establish those adult family
romantic relationships and I'm hoping that as they
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become established in their own adult relationships
that they will see more clearly the dysfunction
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that we were living in when they
were children and that their dad for who
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he is. And it's not that
I want them to see their dad as
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an evil person, but I think
that in order for them to be healthy,
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they have to see him and his
behaviors for what they are, Um,
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and and not make excuses for him
or think that I'm the bad guy
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because I drew the boundaries in his
in my relationship. Um, I don't
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know, I can't think of anything
else. How do you think this impacted
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your health over the years? Well, Um, I um, I think
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that, first of all, that
I think people with emotional instability, uh,
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that is a mental health level of
emotional instabi instability, and I'm not
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talking about people that just, you
know, cry every now and then or
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get sad or anything like that.
I'm talking about a true, deep,
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deep seated chronic situation that affects all
aspects of your life and your relationships.
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And that's what borderline personality. This
is borderline personality disorder is for Um People.
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Is it's it's chronic, it's unrelenting. Um, and I think that
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being married to somebody like that forces
you into a chronic place of trying to
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hold your world together. There's never
a time of rest. Um. BPD
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people can be extremely demanding. Um. Everything is about them. They whether
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if you need to rest, uh, they feel abandoned. If you want
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to sleep, they feel abandoned.
Um. If you need time to yourself,
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they feel abandoned. Um. They
accuse you of being selfish. Um.
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And so you get into this chronic, never ending cycle of sacrificing yourself
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to the point of exhaustion to try
and keep the peace and try and keep
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somebody from being angry and just I
mean you don't want somebody to accuse you
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of being selfish. I don't think
anybody wants to be selfish, but it
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becomes an exhausting cycle of just um
working hard just to keep somebody else from
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and I guess if you, if
you value your integrity and value the fact
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that whether you're a hard working person, then you start doing people pleasing things
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to try and please the other person
so that they will validate you in all
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your hard efforts. And Uh,
I think that for trying to please somebody
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with borderline personality disorder is impossible like
that. There is no level of hard
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work, perfection, emotional stability and
there's nothing you can offer them up on
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a platter that will be enough to
scratch their itch. And I think it
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took me a really, really long
time to figure that out and in fact
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I was in counseling uh and was
talking to the counselor about that and he
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told me, he said you could
be Jesus Christ to him and it would
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not be enough, and that really
hit hard to me because I know,
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I think it's really if you know
the work that Jesus Christ did for us,
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then you understand that it was it
was to the point of dying.
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Um, and I looked at that
and it kind of smacked me between the
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eyes, Um, or should I
say, stabbed me in the heart.
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But um on how hard that I
had been working and how hard I was
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willing to work to try and save
our relationship, and yet nothing that I
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was going to do, nothing I
had done, nothing I was going to
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do, was ever going to be
enough. and Um, when we separated,
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he had called the pastor of our
Church and asked the pastor to call
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call me, and I agreed to
talk to the pastor and he told me.
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He said, I really think that
the problem is is that he has
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a whole list of brudges against you
and unless he can lay down that list
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and forgive you for the things,
whether you're whether they're legitimate things or not,
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he said, Um, he has
to lay down that list and forgive
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you for those things or he you
will never be able to make it through
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this. And that was also the
pastor was trying to give me good advice,
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and it was good advice and in
a real relationship it's excellent advice.
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I in my marriage I am in
now, my husband and I we actually
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I believe practice that on a daily
basis we forgive each other for little irritations
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and things and we accept each other
for who we are and we are but
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it's that's a that's how it works
in a healthy relationship, in the relationship
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we were in, the asking him
to lay down that list of grudges,
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I believe, was an impossibility because
in order for him to lay down the
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grudges he held against me, he
would have to go back in his past
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and forgive the people in his past, and he was unwilling to do that
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kind of inventory, um into his
past and go do that deep work of
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who hurt him in the past,
and that the burdens he was bearing and
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the baggage he was carrying with him
on all of the old pain. And
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so he was carrying that with him
into our relationship and blaming me for things
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that I had not even done.
And so over time Um that extreme work
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of trying to keep the peace and
keep other people happy. It's a very
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exhausting place to be. I back
then I'd chronic fatigue. Was Not really
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it was just being talked about in
fiber Myalgia and all that, and I
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never actually went to the doctor about
anything like that. But I began to
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question my ability over time. I
was starting to wonder if I would die
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from cancer or some kind of illness, because I was had chronic pain and
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I had all of these symptoms that
could be leading up to a disease state
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in my body. I could sleep
like the dead every single night, despite
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my stress, and I never seemed
to be able to get enough rest.
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Um. So at one point I
actually went to the doctor and I didn't
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want the doctor. Our relationship was
very fragmented and I wanted to go have
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a conversation with the doctor just to
see if there was something that was wrong
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with me. It was really an
part of an investment, investigation on my
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part to look for one more thing. I started again. Even my how
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my exhaustion, I blamed on myself. Um, I took the responsibility for
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for that as well. Um,
and assuming that that even our marriage problems
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could be related to maybe I was
clinically depressed and if I could get medication
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for my clinical depression, then that
was what was going to fix us.
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And then if if I could just
not be depressed, then our marriage would
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stand a chance. And so I
again I took full responsibility for everything that
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was mine and even took it to
the, you know, extreme of assuming
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full responsibility for the problems in our
relationship. So I went to the doctor
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and discussed that with them and they
did I get, got on an antidepressant
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and it actually made me, helped
me rest, rest much better, Um,
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and it helped me make better decisions
because, instead of my problems going
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away, it helped me feel more
able to make decisions in the midst of
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my severe crisis. Um. And
at that point our problems were we're daily,
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hourly sometimes Um, it was just
extremely difficult. He got to where
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he would try not to go to
work, he would come home in the
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middle of the day and try and
argue with me about things or be angry
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because he wanted me to take the
day off from things that we were doing,
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to try, and you know,
it wouldn't just out of the blue
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show up and want us to,
you know, do something fun, play
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Games together, and it wasn't that. That wasn't a bad thing, but
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I had already made plans for the
day and already had a schedule for the
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day and we were I was trying
to if it would have been one thing
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if he would help me with the
house, but he didn't Um all the
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housework. That was always mine.
So again, I always accepted responsibility for
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everything that was falling apart. And
it's interesting because now I'm in a relationship
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where I have a partner who shares
equally, most of the time equally with
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responsibilities of the home and maintaining the
home and uh, and it's just it's
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just a very different experience. There's
never any time where, uh, I
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get told I'm the bad guy because
we need to clean the house or do
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laundry or do the dishes or eat
dinner, whatever. You know I'm it's
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just it's just a very different,
different I can't even, hardly even describe
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the difference it is. How did
this impact your dating after your divorce?
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Um, well, I pretty much
refused to date. I felt very broken.
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Um, I felt like I didn't
have the ability to make I really
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questioned again, this was me taking
full responsibility for our relationship and the fracturing
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of the relationship. But, Um, I felt like I couldn't make healthy
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decisions, that I didn't have it
in me, that I was there was
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something in me that was broken and
that I couldn't make good decisions about who
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was a healthy individual and who wasn't, and who would be a good choice
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to marry and who wasn't, who
would be a good partner and who wasn't.
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I felt like, uh, what
had attracted me into that relationship was,
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I was afraid was still there and
I would just end up in another
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relationship just like the old one.
And I know for second marriages that's often
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what occurs and I didn't want that. I didn't want to go I couldn't
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do it again. Um, I
felt like I could never live that life
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again and I would rather have been
single for a lifetime than to ever live
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that life again. And I was
actually at peace with not being read and
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Um, being a single mom was
easier for me without him. I say
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it was often easier. It often
say it was easier for me to be
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a single mom without him in the
picture than it was for me to be
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a single mom married to him,
because that's what I was married to him.
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I was a single mom with a
husband that refused to take responsibility,
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um, as a father and as
a parent, Um, and so having
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him out of the picture was actually
easier than having him in the picture constantly
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running me down and running down all
of my parenting, and at least I
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had to only deal with him running
me down half of the time instead of
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every day. Um. So I
I think that I got to where I
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really kept people at a distance.
I don't think. I think being married
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to him kept me from even knowing
how to have healthy relationships with either men
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or women. Um, because I
didn't date for a while, I had
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some people think that I was lesbian
and I had given up on all men,
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and I kind of. I wasn't
a lesbian, but I definitely had
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given up on all men and it
took me a while to Um and even,
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I think, even after I married
my husband. Now we've had a
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lot of conversations where he's pretty much
called me out and said that it's unfair
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for me to say something as all
men when it's not. And I've had
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other men, just co workers and
stuff, say that's not a fair that's
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not fair to say that, and
it really has kind of put me in
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my in perspective that all men are
not that way and it really could be
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just my perspective and my experience on
the issue. Fair enough. What are
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some strange things that you you've had
to do when it comes to parenting your
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kids because of your bpd husband,
together and when separated. Um. So
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I think that any person who tries
to teach their children basic hygiene and routines
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and is fought by their spouse on
those basic healthy routines and hygienes, there's
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something very wrong, Um. And, like I said, I mean it
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is strange. It is I think
you could call it strange that I was
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always more relieved that he was not
home and I could parent the kids by
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myself than when he did come home, because then I had to play a
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game of we have to respect Dad, even if dad's crazy. And I
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would try and have these hard,
weird conversations with my kids about you know,
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because they didn't see the jet to
send it and they could see the
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injustice and the dysfunction, but they
were getting such mixed messages of how to
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respect somebody like that, and that
that's been a very difficult thing, is
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how to respect somebody who is so
dysfunctional that they constantly force you pass your
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your boundaries, and they pushed past
your boundaries and Um, they behave like
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a child. And and you're the
one, you're the child, but you're
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the one that's more mature than them. That's a very weird that's a very
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weird, strange circumstance for children to
be in. Um. The other thing
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I think that is not just weird
and strange, but it's in just um
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I've been to. I've had to
hire an attorney repeatedly, Um, almost
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to the point where I've got one
on retainer now. But Um just to
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me be able to keep custody of
my kids, because he's taken me back
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to court four times and in between
each of those times he's constantly working on
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my kids to try and get them
to come live with him. Um,
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and each of those court battles lasted
between six months to two years, and
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I don't think any human being should
ever have to fight that many years in
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court for the same thing. Like, once it's decided it should be done,
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it should be put to bed.
Um. It's awkward for any kind
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of big events for the kids,
graduations, weddings, that kinds of things,
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because, you know, you would
think that would be that parents could
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just talk and just work these things
out, but we can't, Um,
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and it's not because my kids don't
understand the why. I think someday they
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will. But I I can't talk
to him for anything because, Um,
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it's always going to be turned around
to be something extremely manipulative. So I
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try and do as little communication as
possible and be as gracious as possible just
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to prevent repercussions for my kids and
for myself. Um, awkward things are.
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He talks about me constantly, the
very disparaging to my reputation, Um
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to other people at my kids like
the coaches of my kids teams, and
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they kind of have always treated me
like I have the plague. Um.
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Church people, people at our church, treated me like I had the plague
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Um. Then when I got married, my husband has experienced the same type
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of disrespectful, awkward situations and treatment
from coaches and uh, friends that are
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Um. Are Our friends that are
the same Um. I don't know the
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word for that, but mutual friends. Mutual has the word. I was
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looking for mutual friends and and it
became very difficult for our mutual friends because
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he always tries to put people in
the Middle Um and make them choose.
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And you know, it's awkward for
other people to be constantly drug into having
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to make a choice. And even
in a short conversation over who's right and
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who's wrong and and they just don't
know what to do and they try to
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be supportive, but they're trying to
be supportive and neutral and that's a really
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difficult thing and a lot of people
don't even know how to do that and
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so a lot of theims they just
withdraw. Um. So it's awkward.
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Now we've talked about my husband.
Now we've talked about moving to another town
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to get away from him, not
because of uh, really for the kid's
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sake, because because my because he
continually puts the kids in awkward situations when
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they're at my house with me,
spending a holiday or something with me,
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spending time with me, he's constantly
texting them, incessantly demanding that they come
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see him, and so they can't
just be at peace and visit with me,
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and so I feel I feel like
it's an awkward situation that I would
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have to move towns just to be
able to have a relationship with my kids
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without him constantly in the middle of
it. But that's that's where we are.
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Um, we haven't made a decision
on that, but that has been
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a constant conversation with me and my
husband. Kay. Um, I see,
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I think we we've covered this past
question. Um, what would you
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what? What advice would you give
to those with a bpd family member?
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M Hm, UM, get out. No, Um, I think it
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depends on your relationship, the nature
of your relationship. Um, I think
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that you could probably like my children, I think that they will always have
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a relationship with their dad. Um. And my advice to children of a
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borderline personality, uh, is different
than my advice to someone who's married to
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a borderline personality. Um, I
do believe that marriage could be possible if
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the borderline personality person is not vindictive
and destructive to the relationship. I think
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that there's different variations of how this
plays out. But Um, I was
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in a situation where it became dangerous
for me to stay in that relationship.
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Um, like I said, at
one point I was planning on staying and
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I was going to go to school
and do things to try and better my
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life. Um, but it was
my my goal was that I was going
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to get busy building a future instead
of get being busy trying to fix an
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old one, my old life.
And so when I started getting busy building
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a future, um, what ended
up happening was the he became less and
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less uh. He felt less and
less of a priority, even though he
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was equally as much as a priority
as he's always been. In my future,
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of how I thought of at the
future still included him, but he
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felt that I was moving on without
him. So it triggered all those feelings
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of abandonment and he believed that I
was abandoning him and the children, even
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though that was not in the character
or the makeup of who I was.
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Um, and I don't know.
I think that it's possible to be married
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to a borderline personality disorder, but
I also think that there are times when
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it's impossible and I think that the
only way to survive and live a life
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that is not terribly dysfunctional and miserable
and depressing and makes makes you think of
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death is to get is to get
out. Um. The other thing for
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children relationships with friends, children and
uncle's, brothers, sisters, parents,
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hard boundaries. I don't know.
You have to draw boundaries and you've got
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to stick to him. There's there's
no way. Um, some of my
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kids, I've seen them draw some
hard boundaries with them with him, and
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he respects them because they don't budge
on those certain boundaries. And then other
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kids, some of my other kids, have not drawn those same boundaries and
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he abuses the heck out of them, uh in those areas. So that's
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that's I see that they look for
the weak spot and then when they find
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it, that weak place in the
fence, they will go to it every
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single time and abused that weak spot. Esther will be back next week to
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tell the last section of her story. Thanks for listening. Always, follow
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us on your favorite social media platform
or podcast platform and, as always,
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you can reach out to Rachel and
recovery DOT com. Thanks for listening and
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tune in next Thursday at ten am. Thank you.
