Boz with Bozlawpa Works in Trauma Related Lawsuits

September 15, 2022 00:36:12
Boz with Bozlawpa Works in Trauma Related Lawsuits
Rachel on Recovery
Boz with Bozlawpa Works in Trauma Related Lawsuits

Sep 15 2022 | 00:36:12

/

Hosted By

Rachel Stone

Show Notes

Boz is an Attorney that help victims of Sexual Abuse Attorney. He is the founder Grace (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environment) 

https://bozlawpa.com/

https://www.netgrace.org/

View Full Transcript

Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:04.280 Hi, this is Rachel and recovery. We've got a special guest today, 2 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:08.960 boss. He's gonna tell us a little bit about himself and boss, tell 3 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:13.240 us a little bit about yourself. Hey, Rachel's good to be here. 4 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.160 Um, my name is Bob is. Actually my full name is Bazil Chividjian, 5 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:21.239 but that tends to frighten people off a bit, so I just go 6 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:25.320 by Bos B O Z um, Rachel. I'm a lawyer. I've been 7 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:30.679 a lawyer since nineteen ninety, three long time. Um. I currently m 8 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:37.039 the operated managed Bo's law, which is a law firm in located in Florida, 9 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:42.320 but I represent abuse survivors throughout the United States, uh, in civil 10 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:46.280 matters involving abuse. So, and we'll talk a little bit later maybe about 11 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:50.799 the difference between a criminal case and a civil case. I represent survivors, 12 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:55.560 abuse survivors and civil cases all throughout the country. and Um, prior to 13 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:59.679 that I was a law school professor and uh, and then back in two 14 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:02.880 thousand before I started, when I was in private practice, after being a 15 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.560 prosecutor for a number of years, I started an organization called grace, which 16 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.799 I think you all have had. Um, pizzinger on as a guest. 17 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:15.480 Who is the Executive Director of grace? Uh, started that and stepped down 18 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:23.200 from my role as the executive director a couple of years ago. Um, 19 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:27.840 how did you start, Bos Lah? Well, Um, you know, 20 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:37.239 I I was teaching Um at a law school and I realized that I did 21 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.760 not want to continue doing that. But I really had a decision to make. 22 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.799 I had a decision to make to either become the full time executive director 23 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.439 of grace or do something different. And you know, the more I thought 24 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.439 about a Rachel I just didn't think that I was the one equipped, best 25 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:59.480 equipped to to take grace from where it is to forward. I'm so glad 26 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:02.799 we found singer because he's he's a really much better role for that job today 27 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:07.640 than than I would have been. But in the meantime I started having a 28 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:12.240 lot of people call me who were abuse survivors looking for lawyers. Um. 29 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.319 They had realized that they could potentially sue a church or a youth service organization 30 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:21.840 or at school based upon the the abuse that they suffered as a child. 31 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.039 And over time I thought, why, why do I keep referring these cases 32 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:28.439 to other lawyers? I can do this. In fact, I had done 33 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:30.400 a little bit of that before I became a law professor. So, Long 34 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:35.319 Story Short, I made the decision back in about two thousand late, two 35 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:40.120 thousand eighteen, Um, two thousand nineteen, to leave the full time profession 36 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:46.120 of being a law professor and to come back to Florida and to really focus 37 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:51.000 the rest of my legal career on advocating for survivors across the country. And 38 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:55.400 so that's why I started Bo's law and it's one of the most rewarding, 39 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.639 humbling and most privileged jobs that I've, I think I've ever done to be 40 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:06.520 able to advocate for such an amazing group of people. Okay, Um, 41 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:13.080 what are some of the most challenging problems in your cases? Well, I 42 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.680 mean every case has has problems. I think that the question is not what 43 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.360 what are the problems, but how do you get around them and how do 44 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.840 you how do you face those problems? A lot of a lot of people 45 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:30.639 come to me having already been to a lawyer and, you know, they 46 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.400 feel like the lawyer is always telling them you've got this problem, you've got 47 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.000 this problem, you've got this problem, and to the point where they feel 48 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.159 like, okay, you know, I don't do I even have a case. 49 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:43.360 And you know, my one of my responsibilities as a lawyer is to 50 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.080 is to speak truth to my clients and inform them of the law, but 51 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.639 also to say, Hey, here are some problems, but here's some ways 52 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.080 that I think we can overcome those problems. And if there's any group of 53 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:59.240 people that can overcome a problem, who's who are capable of overcoming problems, 54 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.280 it's it's it's abuse survivors, and so we we do that. We face 55 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:08.479 those problems. Sometimes the biggest, probably the biggest challenge for me in in 56 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:14.319 speaking to perspective clients, uh is the statute of limitations. When a client 57 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.560 tells me, excuse me, a perspective client shares with me the horrors that 58 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:23.160 they suffered and I'm left with having to tell them that they have no legal 59 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:30.120 remedy, not because what happened to them didn't happen, but because the law 60 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.759 arbitrarily says that after a certain period of time you can't bring a case to 61 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:40.199 court, and every state is different, and that's a really difficult conversation for 62 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.120 me to have with somebody because by the time they finally get to a point 63 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:48.720 of understanding that they were abused, processing that trauma and wanting to hold somebody 64 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:54.720 or somebody's accountable for it. Um, and they take that brave step forward, 65 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:58.600 they're told, I'm sorry, but the doors of the courthouse are closed. 66 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.600 Um, and I that's why we need to have changes in the law 67 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:06.839 so that doesn't happen with these with these individuals. What changes in the law 68 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:14.720 do we need to take place to help victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse? Well, 69 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.480 the big one is the statue limitations, stature limitations, for people who 70 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:23.160 don't know, is really the every state has a law that says, listen, 71 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.079 you have an ex period of time, a limited period of time, 72 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.079 from the time that you got hurt to bring a case to court. Some 73 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.240 states it's two years, some states it's ten years. Um. Some states 74 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.839 they have no stature limitations. It's all over the board. So you know 75 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:45.000 if, just by happenstance, if you if you're a child and you get 76 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.720 sexually abused in the state of Vermont, you have to the for the rest 77 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.399 of your life the ability to file a lawsuit. But if you happen to 78 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:59.240 be abused in the state of Tennessee, you might have UN till I don't 79 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:03.120 know, exactly the twenty five or twenty six Um. So it's just it's 80 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.439 really the luck of the draw. Where you're abused may give you the opportunity 81 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:15.439 to seek legal Um compensation UH and other places will not. So to me 82 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.279 the law needs to change. I would love to see a uniform law that's 83 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:25.600 that's consistent throughout the country Um with and not just with child sexual abuse cases 84 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:29.800 but with adult sexual abuse cases. We see that in New York. More 85 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.959 recently, New York past the Adult Victims Act, which really opened up the 86 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:39.800 doors and extended the statue limitations for adult survivors of sexual abuse. A lot 87 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:44.959 of these a lot of these statue limitations laws were put in place for four 88 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.439 people really had done a lot of research about trauma and you know, our 89 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:54.480 laws need to be informed. And if people understand that, somebody who's suffered 90 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.920 trauma is the first thing they're thinking of. Is Not running to a lawyer, 91 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.560 they're just trying to survive. The next day they may not be ready 92 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.759 to talk to a lawyer for another five or ten years. Why should that 93 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:11.480 person be penalized and have that right taken away simply because some legislator and the 94 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:15.759 capital says we think that's a good amount of time. So I think the 95 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.839 changes in the law as it relates to statue limitations are some of the most 96 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.480 important that need to take place. Some states are doing it and some states 97 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:30.959 are not. Um, okay, how long do these cases usually take? 98 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:39.720 Well, that's a that's a tough question, because every case is different. 99 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:44.600 So, you know, a case might be Um, I might get a 100 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:49.360 client and within three months the case gets settled, maybe because I send a 101 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:54.120 demand letter to the other side and they instead of going through a lawsuit, 102 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:57.079 they wanted to settle the case so it could be settled in a few months. 103 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.560 Others say, you know, we we have no interest in settling this 104 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.079 with you, and then we follow all suit, and a lawsuit can take, 105 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.680 you know, upward of two three years. Um, I think things 106 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:15.040 have really slowed down since covid and so the whole you know, the court 107 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.120 dockets are really backed up because for almost a year we didn't even have court. 108 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.879 So now all those cases that were backed up then have to start making 109 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.000 their way through the system and then, you know, if you're filing something 110 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.600 today, you're you're in the back of the line. Um, so it 111 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:35.440 takes it takes a while. I would say probably of civil cases end up 112 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.240 settling at some point in time, but sometimes they settle a day or two 113 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:41.720 before the trial, after the case has been litigated for for a couple of 114 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:46.559 years, and sometimes, like I said earlier, they settled sooner. But 115 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:52.120 so I let my clients know this is this is a marathon and they're gonna 116 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.279 be weeks, maybe sometimes months, where you feel like nothing's going on and 117 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.519 sometimes you're in but we're we're on top of it and we will get we 118 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.840 will get to the other side, but it's it is not a fast process 119 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.159 and it requires a lot of patients. But I think a lot of survivors 120 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:15.759 have waited years, sometimes decades, to bring their case and so a lot 121 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:16.879 of them say, well, what's another two or three years, as long 122 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.240 as I know something is being done about it. Um, before a victims 123 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.799 starts a lawsuit against a Predator, what are things they should know before proceedings? 124 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.440 And, uh, what's the difference between going after a Predator and civil 125 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.159 versus criminal? Yeah, I mean so I guess the first part of your 126 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.639 question. You know, before a victim starts a lawsuit, where to some 127 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.879 things they know before proceeding well. I think it's really important for lawyers to 128 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.799 help explain the system, the process to the client. Most of our clients 129 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:58.240 are not Um. They've never been the court before and sometimes lawyers do a 130 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:01.639 bad job in assuming that everybody has been to do the process before, but 131 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.879 most of them haven't. So explaining the process, being there to answer questions, 132 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:13.279 trying to empathize with clients, understanding that this is a very tremendous moment 133 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:18.399 in their lives. They're most of them are scared to death. They're pretty 134 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:22.840 intimidated by the process and sometimes they don't even feel like asking questions, not 135 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.320 because they don't have questions, but because they don't want to bother the lawyer. 136 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.480 And I said, you're not bothering me, I want this is your 137 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:35.519 case. That's what's really important for me to communicate to my clients, is 138 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:39.279 that this is not my case, this is your case, which means that 139 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.440 we're going to move forward with this case and you're in charge. I'M gonna 140 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.360 be your advocate, I'm going to be your lawyer, but you have to 141 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.240 be the one empowered to move this thing forward, and I think that's really 142 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:54.320 helpful and it's really I think it helps with some healing of at least some 143 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.720 of my clients to know that they are in charge. Um, I think 144 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.360 that the difference between criminal and civil is is significant. In a criminal case 145 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:09.799 the parties are the government and the defendant, the specific perpetrator. Um, 146 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:15.639 a victim is not a witness, is not a party to the in the 147 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:20.039 criminal case the victim is a witness. So the victim really has no control 148 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.919 over that process. And so if the prosecutor wants to file charges, if 149 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.320 the prosecutor wants to plead Birogon out the case, they'll listen to the victim. 150 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:35.399 But the victim is in many ways powerless in that system and ultimately the 151 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.159 consequence is a criminal conviction of the perpetrator and perhaps their liberty is taken away 152 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:46.679 go into prison. A civil case is a private action where you, the 153 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.960 victim, is a party of the case and the ultimate consequence of a civil 154 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:56.399 case is not prison. The ultimate consequence of a civil case is compensation. 155 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:03.159 And therefore, and and and the possible defendants in a civil case are broader 156 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.399 than just the perpetrator. So if you are working at a school, if 157 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:09.960 you're excused, if you're a student at a school and there's a teacher there 158 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.600 that had been fired from their previous job as a teacher because they were Um, 159 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:22.159 wrongfully touching a student. And Uh, this new school hired them without 160 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.840 doing any type of background check and, Lo and behold, that the teacher 161 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.360 ends up abusing another child. Um. Well, yeah, should the teacher 162 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:35.799 be punished? Absolutely. Should the school be punished? Absolutely. The school 163 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.360 knew, or should have known, that this person was a danger and they 164 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.879 still put this teacher in the classroom with this child. And therefore, you 165 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.799 that would be a good example of filing a civil suit against the school so 166 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.799 that this the child, for the rest of their lives may need to get 167 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.519 counseling, may need to get help, professional help, and whatever capacity. 168 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.879 That child should not have to pay for that them steps, but the compensation 169 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.159 they receive in a lawsuit would go to pay those things in future years. 170 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:15.879 So one is more of government against the perpetrator, ultimate consequence prison, potentially. 171 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:22.240 The other is it's a private action. It's the offender, the victim 172 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:28.840 or survivor against the offender or the end or the institution that's responsible, and 173 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:35.039 the ultimate consequences compensation. Um, can you give us the pros and cons 174 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:43.879 of going for us a little suit against the Predator. Well, remember earlier 175 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.279 I said that the the ultimate consequence of a civil suit is compensation. So 176 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:56.000 the challenge comes when you have a an offender who has no money. So 177 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.159 you can take a case through the process and get a judge and and still 178 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:07.559 walk away with nothing and so and and that's it's even more challenging to find 179 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.720 a lawyer to do that because lawyers handle these cases on what it's called a 180 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.879 contingency fee basis, which means if a victim comes to me and says I 181 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.840 want to hire you as a lawyer, I'm not going to charge them my 182 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:24.879 hourly rate. I'M gonna say, okay, I think what's gonna be easiest 183 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:30.200 for you is you don't owe me anything until or unless we settle the case, 184 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.919 and then once we do, then the legal fees are a percentage of 185 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:41.360 that total settle Um. But if you're going against somebody you know, an 186 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.960 offender who has no money to begin with, it's gonna be tough to find 187 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.240 a lawyer to take that case because you're basically asking the lawyer to take that 188 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.200 case for free because they're never gonna see any money. Um. On the 189 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.960 flip side of that, I've had a number of cases where the perpetrator does 190 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:05.879 have money and they would rather settle the case then have the case filed and 191 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.120 this go through court, public courts, and everybody learn about it, and 192 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:15.519 so they often, not always, but they oftentimes will, will try to 193 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:20.879 settle. So ultimately I try to be very practical and pragmatic with my clients 194 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.320 and say, listen, if you're going to go through this process, the 195 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.840 civil process, the ultimate, ultimate outcome is compensation. But we can't go 196 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:35.039 forward against a perpetrator where we know from day one there will be no compensation. 197 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.759 The last thing I'll say is sometimes what we do is we sue both 198 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.440 the let's say you were abused by a youth pastor. We might sue the 199 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:48.120 perpetrator for the abuse, but we also sue the church. So we sue 200 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:54.080 both and and usually, not always, but usually the church will have insurance 201 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.480 or have some type of assets that they can pay out. So you may 202 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.080 not get you may not get the perpetrator paying you, but the but the 203 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:08.000 the institution that hired him or her, would be paying. Okay, Um, 204 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:12.600 if the case goes to trial, how do you educate the jury on 205 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:23.480 trauma? Huh, okay, that's a good question. Um, I try 206 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:27.720 to start educating the jury from the moment I stand up to select a jury. 207 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:34.679 You Begin asking them questions, asking them questions that are really designed to 208 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:41.720 inform them and not really elicited, designed to elicit answers. Um. So 209 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.519 I'll give you an example. It's not really dealing with trauma, but I 210 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.720 might say, Um, I might ask let's say you're a perspective jury. 211 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.159 I say it, might say Rachel, do you believe that the testimony of 212 00:16:52.320 --> 00:17:00.159 one witness whom you believe is enough to find the defendant here? Response of 213 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.960 all, and you might go no, it's gotta be more. And I 214 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.759 might go, well, how many witnesses do you want? And that's a 215 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.400 way of me educating the jury that in fact, the testimony of one witness 216 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:18.400 whom you believe is sufficient um to either convict or find an institution civilly liable. 217 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:22.839 But that's the way I'm educating the jury. Every question I ask is 218 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.960 educating the jury. So, for example, you know, some people respond 219 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.079 to trauma differently than other people. So I remember when I was a prosecutor, 220 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:37.599 one of my victims. A child was being interviewed in a videotaped interview 221 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.599 and they were being asked questions and they were started laughing in their response. 222 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:48.599 Well, they're not laughing because I think it's funny, they're laughing because, 223 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.839 uh, they're their anxiety levels are through the roof and it's because of the 224 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.039 trauma. So you help and you know you're going to show that video to 225 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.920 the jury. You begin helping them understand that from the beginning of you know, 226 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.559 do you you understand that everybody responds to trauma differently and the way you 227 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.200 respond to trauma maybe some way, may be much different than the way the 228 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.960 person sitting next to you response to Truma? Does that make sense? So 229 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:18.039 you start educating that jury from the very beginning of jury selection. And then, 230 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:23.480 of course, the other way to to us, then the other the 231 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:29.839 other way to uh, to do that is through Um, expert witness. 232 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:37.240 And hold on it. Is there there an expert witness? So you might 233 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.839 bring in an expert therapist who will come in and and testify to the jury, 234 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.599 who may have assessed your client, given him a full psychological assessment and 235 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.200 provided the jury the information they need to understand what trauma is and how trauma 236 00:18:52.200 --> 00:19:03.680 affects somebody's Day to day life. Okay, Um, are things changing in 237 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.960 the legal system when it comes to abuse, whether it's rate, domestic violence 238 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.359 or childhood sexual abuse, and you can break the down. We just start 239 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:17.599 with rank. How is that changing? Yeah, I mean, I guess 240 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:22.599 I would just say as a category, these types of UH sexual violence and 241 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:32.319 adult violence. Um, I think people more people are more aware of this 242 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.559 topic. I think that the one of the benefits of the meat too movement 243 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:42.079 was it brought uh, it brought this issue to the surface and I think 244 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:48.039 a lot of people learned through the me too movement that, Um, that 245 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.759 family members and friends that they had never known before were our survivors of abuse. 246 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:59.279 And so I think there's general awareness, better awareness, in our society 247 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.160 today. I think the legal system is like the legal system usually is, 248 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:08.079 and that is, Um, it's always slow to follow up, and so, 249 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.640 Um, I think we are catching up in the legal system. For 250 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:18.519 example, these these laws that I was telling talking to you about earlier, 251 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:26.759 the statue limitations changes. I think those are shifting, especially for childhood sexual 252 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:33.079 abuse. Um, you know, they're we're providing we're providing survivors a longer 253 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.480 period of time which to come to court. Um I think that the whole 254 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:42.640 non disclosure agreements, which we hear a lot about, which used to be 255 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:48.960 pretty standard with these types of cases and settlements, where you would sign an 256 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.359 agreement, you would get money, but in exchange for that money, within 257 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.640 that agreement, you would agree never to ever talk about the situation again. 258 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:02.319 Well, that's largely that's gone by the a side because people don't want to, 259 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.119 they don't ever want to feel like they have been Um silenced, and 260 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:12.039 so I make it very clear with my clients that if you I'll let the 261 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.319 other side know that we are not going to settle this case if they're going 262 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:19.440 to require a nondisclosure agreement, which is that's a that's a that's a non 263 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.759 negotiable. We're not going to do that. And you know, for the 264 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.920 most part I'm able to settle cases without nondisclosure agreements. So that's a change. 265 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:32.720 I think we the horror of nondisclosure agreements came out when we saw Harvey 266 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:37.359 Weinstein and how many of his victims had to sign these nondisclosure agreements and lived 267 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.599 in fear of ever seeing anything to anybody about what this disgusting human being did 268 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:47.680 to them. We also started with the rabbi Zachariah's situation where, you know, 269 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.960 he had um his victim had signed a non disclosure and and again, 270 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.880 very frustrating not to be able to to share about, you know, the 271 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:03.640 most Um, profound owned parts of their life because of the agreement, it 272 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.200 really ends up looking like a payoff, you know, it's money for silence. 273 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.000 So that's that's largely gone by the wayside. I think we have a 274 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:19.319 lot more to do on on domestic violence and adult sexual violence. Um. 275 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:25.559 You know, I was just hearing the other day the young woman was abducted 276 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.039 when she was running at four in the morning and outside of Memphis and ultimately 277 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.759 murdered, and some of the comments that were being made is, what's she 278 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:37.240 doing and running at four in the morning, and I thought, wow, 279 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:41.440 it's amazing how we can take this situation and turn it around and, whether 280 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:47.480 you intended it or not, you you know, you're victim blaming Um and 281 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:49.759 we've got a long way to go with that. Um, I think what 282 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:56.039 we have you know, I think with adult sexual violence, I'm I feel 283 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.440 like we've taken a few steps backwards. I think the and I don't not 284 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:07.079 necessarily political, but I think the whole trump era brought us there and Um, 285 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:10.519 and you know that there's a large group of people in that in that 286 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:15.920 demographic that thought we should be, you know, feeling sorry for the for 287 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.319 the men, and that the men were the real victims here. And it's 288 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:23.279 just, it's just, it's just not based on fact. And and so 289 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.359 I think we've got to I think we've got a ways to go on on 290 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:32.799 both the adult sexual violence and domestic violence inside and outside of the Church, 291 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.319 Um, because it's it's no better inside the church, in fact, sometimes 292 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:44.000 a lot worse. Very much agree with you there. Um. Many of 293 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.640 our laws in the United States come from Bible. How could we use scripture 294 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:52.960 today to implement better laws, to protect, for protection for victims and more 295 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:59.559 adequate punishment and rehabilitation for perpetrators? Well, I don't think we should be 296 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:06.480 using scriptures today to implement laws. Um, we're not a theocracy or a 297 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.519 republic. Um. Now, that doesn't mean that we can't be informed by 298 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.759 by scripture when we talk about Um. You know, all of us are 299 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.799 made in the image of God. And so how do how does that? 300 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:26.640 How should that if I'm a Christian, UH, politician, Christian legislator, 301 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:33.240 how should that inform me as as to the prioritizing of laws, Um, 302 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.839 and protecting vulnerable people and making sure that victims in these types of cases, 303 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.079 um, aren't humiliated but treated with respect? Those things should inform us, 304 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.319 Um and, and you know so. So I don't. I think our 305 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:56.160 faith should inform us in in the laws that we put forth or the bills 306 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.599 that we put forth. But I'm certainly not a propo on and of using 307 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.720 scripture too to implement laws. I think. Um, I think that gets 308 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:08.359 us in trouble and and, quite frankly, scripture was never my understanding of 309 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:14.400 scripture was never designed to, you know, create laws in a society thousands 310 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.640 of a year later. I mean it's just a misapplication of of all that. 311 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.960 But we can search, sure glean some principles from scripture, Um, 312 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.000 and, and I think we have to do that. Um. And you 313 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.480 know I don't. I'm not. I'm not a big I think I think 314 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:40.960 offenders, especially sexual offenders, they need to be punished. Um. I'm 315 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:47.359 not in my career encountered many, if at any. I don't know who 316 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.279 have ever been, quote unquote, rehabilitated Um and so I think the the 317 00:25:52.839 --> 00:26:00.440 best thing an offender can do is to understand the gravity and darkness of their 318 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.480 own heart. Even if an offender who who reports to have become a Christian, 319 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:08.160 if they have reported to see a lot, a lot of times in 320 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.880 the church, the offender says I've become a Christian. So everybody says, 321 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.880 Oh, the person is a new creature in Christ and welcome him and he 322 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.759 doesn't have that supervision anymore and he's not that person anymore. And I'm going, 323 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.079 well, wait a minute. Actually the person, if they really have 324 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.119 genuinely become a Christian, they'll know they have to acknowledge the darkness of their 325 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:32.920 own heart and how we are. This is replete throughout scripture, how we 326 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.480 are capable of engaging in any time, just about any type of conduct. 327 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.880 And the fact is, Mr Perpetrator, you have engaged in that kinduct that 328 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.920 it's not that you might, you have. So you should be the first 329 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:51.599 and foremost person saying I need guardrails, I need boundaries, I need and 330 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.759 I will subject myself to whatever you direct me to, because I do understand 331 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.720 the darkness of my own heart, because of my faith, um, but 332 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.599 we don't. We sort of look at them in the reverse, and so 333 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:11.559 the offenders. We oftentimes end up giving much more grace to offenders and law 334 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:18.119 to victims, and that's got to change. Yes, Um, what advice 335 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:27.200 would you give victims out there? That's a very broad question. Um, 336 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:32.079 I think that, as a lawyer, what I would say is, in 337 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:34.160 fact, my wife and I have been talking about this recently, and that 338 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:42.599 is I think a lot of victims abew survivors don't realize what their legal options 339 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:47.720 might be. Now, that doesn't mean that they are going to utilize them, 340 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.039 but they don't know what those options are and by the time they decide 341 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:57.279 they're gonna look into that, the statutes of limitations have expired. So one 342 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:02.079 bit of advice I would give is if you're somebody who's been sexually victimized, 343 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:10.119 whether it was last week or last year or ten years ago, um, 344 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:18.559 go connect as soon as practical, go meet with a trauma informed attorney who 345 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:26.559 specializes in sexual abuse litigation to at least here from that person. What are 346 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.799 your options, if any, because what I what I'm I don't want to 347 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.400 see is but that by the time you feel like, okay, I'm ready 348 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.640 to go do this, it's too late because of those darn statute limitations. 349 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:41.440 The sooner you can get in to talk to it a lawyer who don't knows 350 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.000 what they're talking about. This doesn't mean like a lawyer who handles nothing but 351 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:49.880 car accidents or a lawyer who puts together wills and trusts. Now it's got 352 00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:56.400 to be a lawyer such as myself, but there are others who who's almost 353 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.559 exclusive focus of work is this area of law. Go meet with them. 354 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:04.079 Doesn't mean just by meeting with them you're not committing to anything, but at 355 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:08.559 least hear what your options are and the time frame in which you have to 356 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.519 make your decisions, because if you wait too long, by the time you 357 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:22.160 finally do make that decision, it could be too late. Okay, Um, 358 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.240 what are some of the best things a victim can do to strengthen their 359 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:34.599 case against their perpetrator? Well, you know, what I don't want is 360 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:38.599 is my clients going, you know, out there and sort of pulling things 361 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.880 together for their case. Um, you know, I think that that their 362 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:45.720 case is their case. But what I could say what helps is what I 363 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:55.279 call coroberation or cooperative evidence. Cooperative evidence is evidence that tends to support in 364 00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:03.359 some way, shape or form, the disclosure of the victim Um. Cooperative 365 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:11.279 evidence can be anywhere from a confession by the perpetrator to physical evidence. Two 366 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.519 I remember how the case as a prosecutor. The child said that he was 367 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:19.839 abused by this particular father and the child I asked him to describe the room 368 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:23.279 and he he just remembers a and I can't remember specificly what animal, but 369 00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:32.720 this is a a pink stuffed elephant on the shelf. Well, I thought, 370 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:34.519 man, they're going to claim that this child's a liar, he's just 371 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:38.880 making it up. So I had my investigator going and searched the home and 372 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.720 what did we find on the shelf in that room? A pink stuffed elephant. 373 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.400 That was coroborative evidence. When I was able to bring that forward to 374 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:52.160 the jury, all that said to the jury was this kid knows what he's 375 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:56.599 talking about. He remembers the Pink Elephant. They went and found the pink 376 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.240 elephant and it's there. So why should we not believe him for that? 377 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.920 I mean, why should we believe him for that, but not about what 378 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:10.240 this offender did to him. So thinking through, asking clients to think through 379 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:14.240 that type of cooperative evidence. I think the other thing that can really really 380 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:21.279 help strengthen the case, probably more than anything else, is getting your clients 381 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:27.279 into trauma informed therapy right away. The best witnesses that I have ever had 382 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:33.839 in these types of cases are witnesses who have been through therapy and, Um, 383 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.559 I know some lawyers that insist that they won't even take the case unless 384 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.599 the client goes to therapy. I don't I haven't gotten to that part point, 385 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.119 because sometimes they just they can't afford it. But if they can, 386 00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:52.799 getting therapy is really it's not only helpful for my case but probably more importantly 387 00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.599 of course, it's helpful for that client that they can begin processing this trauma 388 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.160 in a healthy way so that they can move forward with life and not be 389 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:06.480 stuck. Um. So I think those are two cooperative evidence and, even 390 00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:10.079 more importantly, therapy. Um, what do you do for self care? 391 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.039 I drink a lot. I just Um, I um, I just try 392 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.640 to I try to know boundaries, like you know, I was telling somebody 393 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.839 a group the other day, like I don't. I do very little reading 394 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:31.160 of books in this area. Um. So people say, did you read 395 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:35.519 the new book by such and such? You know, because I'm right when 396 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:37.839 I when I read, I want to read other books. I'm reading now 397 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:43.519 the biography of Jimmy Carter. I want to read something that's completely unrelated to 398 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.400 what I do all day. Um. I also you have to know how 399 00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.839 to turn things off. I've always been pretty good at ever since my day 400 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:53.400 as as a prosecutor. that. That doesn't mean I don't work at home, 401 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:59.279 as my wife will tell you differently, but I'm not living and breathing 402 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:04.920 my work. Um, I know I love to, you know, sit 403 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.880 and read, go swimming, go to the beach, all those types of 404 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.200 things, even though I probably could say, well, I should be homeworking 405 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:15.359 on this case. That's not healthy for anybody and certainly not good for your 406 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.240 client, because if you get burned out as a lawyer, you're not serving 407 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:23.759 your client well at all. Okay, and Um, last question. How 408 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:35.200 has this impacted your faith? That's a whole another program Um. I think 409 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:40.519 I think it's. I think it has profoundly impacted my faith. I still 410 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:45.000 have faith, which some days is quite amazing. Um, I doubt a 411 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.279 lot. Probably that a lot more, which I think doubt is is not 412 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.039 necessarily a bad thing. Um, I'm not nearly as black and white as 413 00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:02.279 I used to be or dogmatic. Um, I don't think I have all 414 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:07.519 the answers when it comes to my faith and I stay away from people who 415 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:14.199 think they do. Um. Yeah, I mean I I I have a 416 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.719 very low view of the church. A pretty high view of Jesus still, 417 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.400 but I have a pretty low view of the church. Um. So, 418 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:28.440 yeah, I think I think it's it's prompted me to ask some really good 419 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:31.480 questions that maybe years ago I might have been afraid to even ask myself. 420 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:37.280 Um. And so I just I think in many ways I've been given a 421 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.679 different Lens in which to look through my faith and I think that's been a 422 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.320 good thing for me. Um, it's been a healthy thing for me. 423 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:50.400 I sort of got got out of the small box that I was stuck in 424 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:57.400 for most of my life when it came to by faith and and I'm glad 425 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.519 to be out of that box. Um. And because I think that's I 426 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.599 don't think. I don't think we find got in a box, I think 427 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.199 we find them outside of it. I definitely agree. Um. Is there 428 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:12.000 anything else you would like to add. I don't think so, Rachel. 429 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.880 I mean just for for any of your listeners if they like I said earlier, 430 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.719 with regard to the advice I would give victims, Um, if you 431 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.400 if you sell, if you are somebody that has been victimized, don't wait 432 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:29.639 too long before at least talking to a lawyer and, uh, they can 433 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.599 always reach out to me my websites, spas, law PA DOT com. 434 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:36.960 Um, they can reach out and if they just want to set up a 435 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:40.079 free consultation, we can have that conversation with them. Or they may find 436 00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:44.760 somebody Um in there. You know, they may know somebody already. But 437 00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:50.079 I just would encourage survivors listening. Don't wait. Um, doesn't mean you 438 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.039 have to take action right away, but at least know what your options are. 439 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:57.199 suffore it's too late. Thanks, Bos Um. All right, guys. 440 00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:00.079 Thank you, guys, for listening. Always follow us on Rachel on 441 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:05.639 recovery, on social media and your favorite podcast platform and if you have any 442 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:07.840 questions, reach out to Rachel and recovery DOT com. Thanks.

Other Episodes

Episode

August 25, 2022 00:27:00
Episode Cover

Pete Singer with Grace on Spiritual Abuse Part 4

Pete Singer with Executive Director of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) dealing with prevention, intervention and recovery of abuse inside...

Listen

Episode 13

March 03, 2022 00:34:21
Episode Cover

Dr. Anna Salter PhD. Understanding Sexual Predators

Dr. Anna Salter has worked with victims and pertrators for over 40 years. She has written 8 books 3 professional books and 5 mystery...

Listen

Episode 4

May 19, 2022 00:22:18
Episode Cover

Steve Bogner's Journey as Ex-Spouse of a Childhood Sexual Abuse Survivor Creator of Support for Partners Part 2

Steve Bogner is the creator of http://supportforpartners.org/. He was married to a survivor for many years and to get support he created an online...

Listen