Zach Hiner with Snap

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.960 Hi, this is Rachel and we're here with Zach from snap and he's going 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.440 to tell us a little bit about himself and then he's gonna answer some questions 3 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:12.759 for us. Hey folks, thanks for tutor dead. Thanks Rachel, for 4 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:16.199 inviting me on. My name is Zach Heiner, on the Executive Director of 5 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:20.839 snap, survivor's network of those abused by priests, and, despite our name, 6 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:25.719 we do provide support services for survivors who are abused in any sort of 7 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:30.679 religious and institutional situation. We were formed out of the Roman Catholics ex abuse 8 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.000 crisis, but today we have support groups and services for folks who are abused 9 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:39.920 in just about any situation. Okay, Um, let's tell us a little 10 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.880 bit about snap. I mean, I guess we've answered a little bit of 11 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:47.799 that that, but sure, it's a cool story. I like to talk 12 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.679 about the history of snap, because snap is a is a true grassroots survivor's 13 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:56.759 network. It was found in nine it started when our founder, a woman 14 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:03.200 named Barbara Blaine, herself was a survivor of clergy sexual abuse by a priest 15 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.959 in the diocese of Toledo Ohio. At the time, in a D eight 16 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.359 she was working in Um in Chicago as a social worker and she just was 17 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.439 kind of grappling with her abuse, you know, the memories of it and 18 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.480 the aftermath of it, and she wanted to find out if there were other 19 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:23.280 folks out there dealing with the same so she put an ad in a publication 20 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.840 called the national Catholic reporter, just saying hey, you know, were you 21 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.920 sexually abused by the Catholic priest? I would like to talk to you. 22 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.159 And she got a lot of contexts from that and a lot of and a 23 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:38.680 lot more and more and more, and they were coming from all around the 24 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.239 country. So she, you know, started steps. Started as Barbara, 25 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:47.319 just going to visit these individual survivors around the country and realizing that, you 26 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.159 know, what they wanted to do together as survivors was be there for other 27 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.280 folks in the same situation. Now, I mean even today clergy sexual abuse 28 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.120 is still a pretty taboo subject, but especially then, you know, pre 29 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.439 all of the major revelations about about C S A and pretty much every religious 30 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:07.640 institution in the country. Back then it was especially hard for folks to come 31 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.800 forward. So they wanted to set up these basis of snap leaders and snap 32 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.560 groups where survivors could come forward to someone who they knew would believe them and 33 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.039 be there for them. Um, and you know. Now, you know. 34 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.719 Fast forward to two UH, you know, the founders have all moved 35 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.080 on. Barbara Blaine sadly passed away a few years ago, but her vision 36 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:30.879 lives on today. Snap is active not just in every state in the United 37 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:36.759 States, but we have chapters abroad in Australia, in New Zealand and Japan. 38 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.960 We partner with organizations in Africa, South America and we have leaders in 39 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.599 Europe as well. So we we really have continued on that same vision of 40 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.639 providing a place where survivors can come forward and get help, as well as 41 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.759 have someone on their side who will advocate for them in the media and publicly 42 00:02:53.800 --> 00:03:01.759 as well. What are some challenges when facing you face and face when educating 43 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.360 people about the clergy sexual abuse? Well, and I'm sure you not to 44 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.879 tell do this to you, Rachel and, if you're your listeners here, 45 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.919 but you know, we all know that sexual abuses a taboo topic. Right 46 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.080 people, you know, don't want to talk about this to begin with. 47 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.479 You know that best usually get oh, I'm so sorry that happened with you 48 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.319 now let's move on and talk about the weather kind of thing. So already 49 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:29.080 getting, you know, people to break down barriers and talk about the sad 50 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.199 and common reality of sexual abuse across our country is already difficult. But then 51 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:36.479 when you add something like faith to it, you know, then it becomes 52 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.800 so much more personal. Personal's react, people's reactually get more visceral to the 53 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.599 problem. Um, and it becomes more about, you know, the abuse 54 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.639 becomes almost secondary to the issue of the faith of the church and how all 55 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.840 the intertwines. And I think survivors can sometimes because of the fact that they're 56 00:03:53.879 --> 00:04:00.000 going up against these incredibly powerful institutions that, you know, people believe in 57 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.080 and and look to for guidance from birth, in many cases, it can 58 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:10.360 be extremely challenging and so I think I want to give credit and I applaud 59 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.759 any survivor of any kind that comes forward as able to tell their story. 60 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.360 And I think every survivor recognizes the reality that there are a lot of difficulties. 61 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:23.040 UH, whatever, you're gonna whatever, you disclose about your abuse, 62 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.959 and then when you add in insular community factors like you often find in faith 63 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:33.680 based communities, that become even harder. Um, what are some patterns have 64 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:40.600 you noticed when spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are being tied together? You know, 65 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.639 kind of going into what I was saying a minute ago. I think 66 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.319 you know, we all know sexual abuses about is about power and control, 67 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:53.360 right, and I think when you have that power and control can be even 68 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.879 kind of ramped up a little bit when it is a faith leader who is 69 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.279 the person who is abusing you, in a sense that, Um, you 70 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.000 know, these are the people that, again, we're taught as children, 71 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:08.319 we look to them for for Moral Guidance and guidance, uh, in how 72 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.920 we should live our lives in the best possible way, you know, and 73 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.959 that are that our creator wanted us to live. And so when someone's exposure 74 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.000 often, you know, you think about about children who are sexually abused at 75 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.800 a young age. Pre pubess it right, it's often their first exposure to 76 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.480 sexuality at all. And so to have it come from a person who is 77 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.920 your faith leader, Um, who? Who? Who wants these things to 78 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:36.759 remain silent and hidden? And then, Um, it's all being so taboo 79 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:42.560 and horrible. I mean I just think it leads to all of this being 80 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.920 so covered up and institutions have a vested interest in keeping these cases covered up 81 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.800 because if they come forward they lose that moral guidance right again. That's what 82 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:56.600 people look to from churches. They look for guidance on these hard, difficult 83 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.000 to answer questions about life and what we're doing and difficult moments in our life 84 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:05.319 people often look to spiritual leadership for and so if that kind of feeling where 85 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:11.319 people look to two churches for guidance in roads because of this abuse of power, 86 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.639 Um, well than then they have nothing left. So so churches, 87 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:16.480 I think across the board. This is really tied, you know, to 88 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.800 the Roman Catholic Church, but that's mostly because they've gotten the most attention in 89 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.720 the news. But I think every religious institution has sort of a vested interest 90 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:30.560 in covering up cases of sexual abuse that happened within their ranks. Um, 91 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.360 tell us a little bit of a little bit about your experience with snap. 92 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:42.920 You know, snap is h I love snap because snap sort of helped me 93 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.399 figure out what I want to do with my life, and that's a real 94 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:47.879 selfish way of talking about this, but you know, I didn't and I 95 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.319 didn't really think I'd be working a child sexual abuse for a career and then, 96 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:55.720 you know, I had the chance to work with Barbara and David. 97 00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.360 I was an assistant for them about almost twelve years ago now, and I 98 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.439 got to see kind of firsthand the resilience and strength of survivors and how, 99 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:08.240 Um, you know, when when we protect children, when we make sure 100 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:12.279 that that kids are protected and raised and healthy and loving communities and families, 101 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.399 then we have a positive impact on things like homelessness, poverty, uh, 102 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.959 life expectancy, all of these things. and to me, you know, 103 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:27.040 protecting children Um became so important to me because I saw the example of these 104 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.639 people who weren't protected as children and had to deal with the effects of childhood 105 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:36.040 trauma and and what they did and the organization that they created to try to 106 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:40.160 try to stop that from happening. And so, because of them, I 107 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.720 took an interest in child sexual abuse child abuse prevention as a career. I 108 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.560 worked with them at snap for a while before I moved and went to start 109 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.759 working at prevent child abuse America, which is a wonderful organization that focuses on 110 00:07:51.839 --> 00:08:00.560 primary prevention, education and legislation. Wonderful Organization, but Um, one thing 111 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.240 that I didn't get a P C A that I that I get it snap, 112 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:05.360 and that really sustains me, because this is again, Rachel, you 113 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.319 know this. This is difficult work, these are hard stories. Um, 114 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.959 seeing the strength and resilience of the survivors who have put this issue on their 115 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.439 back in order to protect, you know, the next generation, if you 116 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.120 will, Um, is really, really something that kind of humbles me and 117 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:28.160 is impressive. And I stand on the shoulders of survivors every day doing work 118 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.320 to try to advance this cause. And so one thing that I always think 119 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.399 of when I think of snap is it really demonstrates the true power of a 120 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:41.320 network and how bringing people together helps not only the survivors who initially came together 121 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.360 for help, but it helps educate communities. That helps educate those of us, 122 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.559 like me, are lucky enough to not have lived experience right and helps 123 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:52.759 bring people into the cause, into the solution, um, that we're trying 124 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.879 to drive to prevent any other child or vulnerable adult from being sexually abused in 125 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.600 the future. And that kind of is always what I think of what I 126 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.480 think of snap. Okay, Um, what are some of the best advice 127 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:09.200 you could give to victims out there? I'll try to answer this in in 128 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.279 three ways. It sounds kind of kind of Pithy, but I promise you 129 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.399 would really mean this. And the first is to trust in and believe yourself. 130 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.480 You know, we know one of the effects of of of sexual abuse, 131 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.039 of childhood trauma is, you know, feelings of self, of self 132 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.279 blame and doubt and guilt, like like it's your fault. You know that 133 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.799 this happened to you, and I think, Um, you know, I 134 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.759 think it's important that survivors learned to listen to themselves and to trust themselves and 135 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:37.960 realize you don't have to be as hard on yourself. It's also your fault, 136 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.519 this was something that happened to you. And then second I think that 137 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.080 you know, once you get to the point of trusting yourself, that this 138 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.120 wasn't your fault. I think is is to tell someone, to talk to 139 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.960 someone, talk to a friend, of family member, anybody you love or 140 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.399 trust, because one thing that one of the snap founders, David Classy, 141 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.519 always always said, which I found just to be so was that, you 142 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.600 know, talking is is hard. Speaking is hard, but living in silence 143 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:09.960 is a death sentence, and I think that's kind of true. You know, 144 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.840 the more that people just keep in what happened to them to themselves, 145 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.679 the harder it is. But but there are folks out there who will share 146 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.840 that burden with you and Um, I hope you will talk to them. 147 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:22.399 And then, and then the next thing after that is is, you know, 148 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.360 once you once you found that the courage to come forward, it's to 149 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.320 recognize that a journey of healing is not a linear point a to point B. 150 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:33.840 It's a it's a circle and it's a roller coaster. There's gonna be 151 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.919 ups and downs along the way. You'RE gonna move forward at tremendous speed and 152 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.279 then you're gonna backslide. You know, there will be times where you're feeling 153 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:45.879 just on top of the world and something might might trigger you or activate a 154 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:50.159 memory and it'll it'll make you feel like you're healing has has knocked back and 155 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:52.519 the survivors, some survivors I've worked with, you know, kind of take 156 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.840 that when they recognize that things aren't going perfectly the way that they want them 157 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.000 to it. They're still struggling with the memories and they're still struggling with trauma. 158 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.600 You know, that's not on you. That's not a failure on you 159 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.480 as a as a survivor or a person or someone trying to heal. It's 160 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.320 just the reality of dealing with trauma and so I think you know, ultimately 161 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.960 this kind of boils down to be kind to yourself and trust yourself and then 162 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.399 remember that there are folks out there who who want to help and want to 163 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:24.919 want to support you along the way. What are some resources out there that 164 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:31.480 many survivors find helpful? Sure, so I'll speak to the resources that we've, 165 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.879 you know, over the years, spent the most energy on at snap, 166 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:37.799 because that's what people have come to us have been most helpful. But 167 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.080 first is in terms of peer support, and at snap we do that be 168 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:46.519 via peer support group meeting. So kind of similar to things like someone who 169 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.039 who've been to some like a or n a might be familiar, but you 170 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.480 leave your title, all of that at the door when you come together in 171 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:58.200 this room. You're all just survivors and you're there just to share experiences uh 172 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.320 in a safe and non judgmental community. Um, it's not a place where 173 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.879 you're gonna come and you're gonna get told what to do. It's just the 174 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.480 place where you can share what you're going through with other people who who will 175 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.360 recognize it. We also, of course, do. They'll provide linkages to 176 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.039 services that survivors might need, and I think that's something that that all survivors, 177 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.919 not just clergy abuse but any kind of survivor, will need. is 178 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.480 is someone who not is a therapist and likely an attorney if folks are looking 179 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:31.080 for justice, but not just any therapist or attorney, but people who are 180 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:37.320 trauma informed in the reality of how sexual abuse or childhood trauma or trauma adulthood 181 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.519 manifests, because some folks, while they might be trying to do the right 182 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.559 thing, they don't necessarily get it. Maybe they weren't trained, they weren't 183 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.279 you know, they didn't go through trauma inform training in school, whatever it 184 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:54.679 may be. But there is a you know, it is important to recognize 185 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.120 that some traum some survivors are going to be a little bit more anti about 186 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.879 their case right might be a little bit more communicative with the attorney, and 187 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.360 so you have to have an attorney who recognizes that and isn't going to be 188 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.120 annoyed by that, are frustrated by it, but recognize that this is a 189 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.919 trauma response. And so what we have done over the years is we've collected. 190 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.480 We we collect resources and referrals from survivors who say, Hey, I 191 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.559 had a really good experience with, you know, Dr a in New York 192 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.080 City. So the next time a survivor comes to us we can say, 193 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.480 Hey, we've never worked with Dr A, but we know that survivors have 194 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.639 said that they're a good person. But what I always tell as well, 195 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.159 this kind of goes back to US saying about trust yourself, is that, 196 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.600 you know, what ultimately comes down to is your individual rapport right, how 197 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.600 you feel with the professional you're working with. And so it doesn't matter if 198 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.279 people have had a really great time with Dr a. If you go in 199 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.840 there and you're not that comfortable, hey, that makes total sense, we 200 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.279 can help you. Know you should find someone else. And so it all 201 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.279 really comes down to that, you know, personal kind of feeling, you 202 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.360 know, and then again it kind of one last thing is it's similar to 203 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:00.879 pere support, but but a little of it on the outside, which is 204 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.960 kind of like mentorship, right, like someone else's walk, the walk who's 205 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.840 been there, that you can kind of have a one on one relationship with, 206 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.039 to text, email with time to time, to say hey on facebook, 207 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.080 whatever. It might be, but just someone who you know you can 208 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.440 turn to when things go bad. Those are the main kind of things that 209 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.320 we do, you know, from a survivor's support perspective. But we also, 210 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:24.159 of course, advocate for survivors. We advocate legislatively, primarily for things 211 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.519 like statute limitations reform, which we know is the number one barrier to survivors 212 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.240 receiving justice. Um. We educate for things like mandatory reporting and the removal 213 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.679 of clergy penitent privilege, which is basically an exception that allows clergy to to 214 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.159 not be considered mandated reporting. And then we advocate for survivors in the media. 215 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.559 You know, when we're talking about most of our folks are are. 216 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.519 It's, you know, forgive the pond, but really is David and Goliath, 217 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.840 because it's an individual survivor going against a giant religious institution that could often 218 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.399 feel outnumbered. We help them get their stories in their side, into the 219 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.600 into the media, so that folks can see, you know, what an 220 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:05.799 Individu you survivor goes through Um and and that's been a major reason. Really 221 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.600 the media has been one of the major reasons that we've seen improvements in institutional 222 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.039 response to child sexual abuse. Over, have you ever gone, I had 223 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.000 to go against a police department just because of, uh, them doing a 224 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:24.960 poor job of reporting the abuse? Yeah, that's a that is a sad 225 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.919 reality is that. You know, not all departments are created equal. And 226 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.480 there I have, I have definitely had many a survivor who we've had to 227 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.679 work with who they've said, Hey, I've reported a report to them, 228 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:37.919 the abuse, to the police, and they told me it couldn't happen. 229 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.960 You know, we know that father, Father Mike wouldn't do that and ignored 230 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.320 them. Um packed for those those of you who saw spotlight right, you 231 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.600 saw the complicit nature of the Boston Police Department there in that case. So, 232 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.320 yeah, there's no doubt that that's a problem, one of the kind 233 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:58.440 of you know, it's certainly not a silver lining, but when you are 234 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.840 going up against the government and stitution in that way, there are at least 235 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.120 other avenues that you can get to around it. You know, you can. 236 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.159 We can go to district attorneys, we can go to inspect your General 237 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.720 Um, UH departments within in state government, right and have them do an 238 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.559 investigation the police if they're not doing the right thing. Sometimes you can talk 239 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.600 to federal level agents if there has been something that you know makes at that 240 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.720 level, such as crossing state lines. But the reality is, I recognize 241 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:32.759 it, that working within the justice system for survivors often isn't really a pathway 242 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:37.120 to justice and can be retriggering and re traumatizing in many ways. And so 243 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.240 we do and I think one thing, you know, we do encourage survivors 244 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.879 to report. Always. We always encourage survivors to make sure you've got someone 245 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.159 you can trust with you. Make sure someone who could be there to hold 246 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.639 your hand, you know, just stand behind you, help you project strength 247 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.039 as you're going and it's not easy. Never is Um and, and you're 248 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.600 right, Rachel, not all, not all police departments, are created equal 249 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:11.599 here. What does snap do to educate the communities? So that's really where 250 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.519 media is our biggest partner. And and you know, like I said, 251 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.119 helping survivors get their story into the local paper, state paper, whatever it 252 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.319 may be, um not only helps, you know, humanize the story of 253 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.799 abuse that people are going through, but what people people will read those stories. 254 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.039 Like we were talking about the beginning here, right, like people don't 255 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.359 want to just raise their hand and start a conversation about child sexual abuse. 256 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.920 But when you're reading, you know, news on the internet or your Sunday 257 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.319 morning paper, whatever it might be, they come across these stories and people 258 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.480 will engage with them that way and I think that's really one of the most 259 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.799 critical things that we can continue to do, is to push those narras. 260 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.440 But we also put a ton of resources out there. You know, we 261 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.079 we have we have an annual conference everyly, every year we have free quarterly 262 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:59.720 mini conferences where we try to highlight survivor stories, where we try to high 263 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.880 high advocate advocacy angles, we try to highlight healing modalities, really trying to 264 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.119 put as much free content out there via social media and our website so that 265 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.160 survivors can access it when they need family, friends, people are trying to 266 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.799 learn about the situation can as well, um, because really it does come 267 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.559 down to the fact that, uh, you know, abuse happens in silence, 268 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.319 but but healing happens in community and the more people that we educate about 269 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.480 it and bring into that community, you know, the better chance we have 270 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:33.839 of eradicating CS. Fair enough, Um, how do you think the churches 271 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:40.920 could be better at responding to sexual abuse? This to me is really easy. 272 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.880 Mandate, mandate outside reporting, you know, report to secular authorities. 273 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.640 You know, if you look at all of these churches right now, uh, 274 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.720 Pope Francis was just in the in the the news over the weekend for 275 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.640 for acknowledging that his own new abuse laws, you know, hadn't made much 276 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.599 of a difference. And the reality is is because there is nothing new about 277 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.559 about the abuse laws that he put in. All they did was mandate further 278 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.440 reporting, bishops, reporting up to bishops. And you know, the Southern 279 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.240 Baptist Convention, we saw the same thing in the report that came out in 280 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.400 August. Right everything was mandated to be reported internally. And, like I 281 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.759 said at the beginning of this, you know religious institutions, they're always going 282 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.680 to put their reputation first because their reputation is really what sustains them as an 283 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.079 organization. And so I think any church that truly wants to make a difference, 284 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.680 and to be clear, I'm talking with abroad brush, but there are 285 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.680 parishes, there are individual level diocese, there are churches that have done a 286 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.759 great job in in individual level reporting to, you know, their their police, 287 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:44.319 to district attorneys, into the Attorney General. But Um, really it 288 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:49.119 comes down to knowing that you can't fix all of these problems yourself. You 289 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.920 can't fix all of these things internally and things need to be done outside secularly. 290 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.359 It just goes for every institution. We're seeing the same kind of problem 291 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:02.119 in universities right where multiple sexual assault scandals in several big ten universities at all 292 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.200 did the same thing, all internally reported. All there there needs to be 293 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:14.559 outside secular involvement. What do you do for self care? Mm Hmm, 294 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.519 not enough. How's that for an answer? Um, you know, I 295 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.440 like to read. You know I like to read. Before I had my 296 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.839 son, I'd like to play video games with that one's out, so now 297 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.599 I'm mostly just playing with them on the floor instead. But Um, you 298 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.759 know, uh, honestly, just being outside and being in nature is a 299 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.440 really kind of healing centering thing for me. You know, helps me, 300 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.160 Um, relax after after a long day of work, and I know that 301 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.559 the same is true of many UH folks that I work with. You know, 302 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.279 just finding some time to be outside in some green space, which, 303 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.279 you know, I live in downtown Chicago, so I don't have a ton 304 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.200 of green space, but we do have a pretty big lakes. I can 305 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:57.000 at least go go sit by that. Um, but you know, I 306 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:02.440 think, I think really the best way of putting is just trying to find 307 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.680 time where I can sit and think to myself, you know, and just 308 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.799 I don't have to worry about obligations for the moment. Just be myself, 309 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.680 UM, alone. That's that's the most important thing I do for self care 310 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:22.400 these days. Okay, and how has this impacted your faith? Um, 311 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.920 you know, negatively. Um, it's hard to it's hard to be in 312 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:32.839 this work and have the same view of a religious institution. You know that 313 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.440 that I did previously. At the same time, though, you know, 314 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.119 faith is really deeply personal and I think one thing that working at snap especially 315 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:45.319 has showed me is how people are able to take their faith and extricate it 316 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.960 from the institution at large. You know, I think I've spoken to some 317 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.200 survivors who have said that they, you know, they are abused, abused 318 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.000 at a church, and they will never be able to believe in God again. 319 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.960 I've talked to some survivors who were abused at a church and they said, 320 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.200 you know, they know that their God wanted more for them than that 321 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.960 and you know, they weren't going to let the abuse take away that relationship. 322 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.599 And there's some who moved churches or found a new relationship with with their 323 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.200 creator and what it may be. For me personally, it's kind of eliminated 324 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.160 religion from my life. But Um, you know, I think it really 325 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:26.880 comes down to finding how these institutions fit into your life. Do they provide 326 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.720 a benefit to you? And if they do, that is wonderful, and 327 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.759 if they don't, then they don't and and find something else and move on. 328 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.799 Um. Is there anything else you would like to add or anything else 329 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.759 you'd like to say? Yeah, I mean I just you know, to 330 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.160 anybody listening to this, I know that it's not easy to come forward, 331 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:51.119 it really isn't. But I hope that if you are listening to a podcast 332 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.119 like Rachel on recovery, that that you're you're trying to do something for yourself, 333 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.240 and so I hope that you'll you'll take this and find someone that you 334 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:02.440 can talk to, a friend at trusted family member. There's organizations like rain 335 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:04.960 that have great chat services. I mean even that could be good for you, 336 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.240 but find someone to speak to, find someone to help ease your burdens 337 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.160 with. You know, there are organizations out there, whether it's to do 338 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.880 like snap or one of the myriad out there. They are looking to help. 339 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.400 There are organizations out there that want want to help you and want to 340 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.000 make sure you're not going through this journey alone, and so I hope that 341 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:23.960 you know this podcast and Rachel, thank you for doing this. I think 342 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.880 it's important. Um, I hope that this encourages you to to, you 343 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:32.799 know, get out there, advocate for yourself and help, you know, 344 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.079 lay some of your burdens down a little bit. Okay, Um, all 345 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.440 right, thanks, Zach, for coming on the show and telling us a 346 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:44.720 little bit about yourself and snap, and maybe we'll do a recap later. 347 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:47.839 Um. All right, guys, thanks for listening. This is Rachel and 348 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:52.599 recovery. Um, we're tuning out and you can always follow us on your 349 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.279 favorite platform for a podcast or social media, and always, if you have 350 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.000 any questions, reach out to Rachel on recovery DOT com. Picks