Zach Hiner with Snap

September 22, 2022 00:24:05
Zach Hiner with Snap
Rachel on Recovery
Zach Hiner with Snap

Sep 22 2022 | 00:24:05

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Hosted By

Rachel Stone

Show Notes

Executive Director Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests

SNAP, the largest, oldest and most active support group for women and men wounded by religious and institutional authorities (priests, ministers, bishops, deacons, nuns, coaches, teachers, and others).

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Episode Transcript

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.960 Hi, this is Rachel and we're here with Zach from snap and he's going 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.440 to tell us a little bit about himself and then he's gonna answer some questions 3 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:12.759 for us. Hey folks, thanks for tutor dead. Thanks Rachel, for 4 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:16.199 inviting me on. My name is Zach Heiner, on the Executive Director of 5 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:20.839 snap, survivor's network of those abused by priests, and, despite our name, 6 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:25.719 we do provide support services for survivors who are abused in any sort of 7 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:30.679 religious and institutional situation. We were formed out of the Roman Catholics ex abuse 8 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.000 crisis, but today we have support groups and services for folks who are abused 9 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:39.920 in just about any situation. Okay, Um, let's tell us a little 10 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.880 bit about snap. I mean, I guess we've answered a little bit of 11 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:47.799 that that, but sure, it's a cool story. I like to talk 12 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.679 about the history of snap, because snap is a is a true grassroots survivor's 13 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:56.759 network. It was found in nine it started when our founder, a woman 14 00:00:56.840 --> 00:01:03.200 named Barbara Blaine, herself was a survivor of clergy sexual abuse by a priest 15 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.959 in the diocese of Toledo Ohio. At the time, in a D eight 16 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.359 she was working in Um in Chicago as a social worker and she just was 17 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.439 kind of grappling with her abuse, you know, the memories of it and 18 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.480 the aftermath of it, and she wanted to find out if there were other 19 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:23.280 folks out there dealing with the same so she put an ad in a publication 20 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.840 called the national Catholic reporter, just saying hey, you know, were you 21 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.920 sexually abused by the Catholic priest? I would like to talk to you. 22 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.159 And she got a lot of contexts from that and a lot of and a 23 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:38.680 lot more and more and more, and they were coming from all around the 24 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.239 country. So she, you know, started steps. Started as Barbara, 25 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:47.319 just going to visit these individual survivors around the country and realizing that, you 26 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.159 know, what they wanted to do together as survivors was be there for other 27 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.280 folks in the same situation. Now, I mean even today clergy sexual abuse 28 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.120 is still a pretty taboo subject, but especially then, you know, pre 29 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.439 all of the major revelations about about C S A and pretty much every religious 30 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:07.640 institution in the country. Back then it was especially hard for folks to come 31 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.800 forward. So they wanted to set up these basis of snap leaders and snap 32 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.560 groups where survivors could come forward to someone who they knew would believe them and 33 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.039 be there for them. Um, and you know. Now, you know. 34 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.719 Fast forward to two UH, you know, the founders have all moved 35 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.080 on. Barbara Blaine sadly passed away a few years ago, but her vision 36 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:30.879 lives on today. Snap is active not just in every state in the United 37 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:36.759 States, but we have chapters abroad in Australia, in New Zealand and Japan. 38 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.960 We partner with organizations in Africa, South America and we have leaders in 39 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.599 Europe as well. So we we really have continued on that same vision of 40 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.639 providing a place where survivors can come forward and get help, as well as 41 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.759 have someone on their side who will advocate for them in the media and publicly 42 00:02:53.800 --> 00:03:01.759 as well. What are some challenges when facing you face and face when educating 43 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.360 people about the clergy sexual abuse? Well, and I'm sure you not to 44 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.879 tell do this to you, Rachel and, if you're your listeners here, 45 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.919 but you know, we all know that sexual abuses a taboo topic. Right 46 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.080 people, you know, don't want to talk about this to begin with. 47 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.479 You know that best usually get oh, I'm so sorry that happened with you 48 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.319 now let's move on and talk about the weather kind of thing. So already 49 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:29.080 getting, you know, people to break down barriers and talk about the sad 50 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.199 and common reality of sexual abuse across our country is already difficult. But then 51 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:36.479 when you add something like faith to it, you know, then it becomes 52 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.800 so much more personal. Personal's react, people's reactually get more visceral to the 53 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.599 problem. Um, and it becomes more about, you know, the abuse 54 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.639 becomes almost secondary to the issue of the faith of the church and how all 55 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.840 the intertwines. And I think survivors can sometimes because of the fact that they're 56 00:03:53.879 --> 00:04:00.000 going up against these incredibly powerful institutions that, you know, people believe in 57 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.080 and and look to for guidance from birth, in many cases, it can 58 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:10.360 be extremely challenging and so I think I want to give credit and I applaud 59 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.759 any survivor of any kind that comes forward as able to tell their story. 60 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.360 And I think every survivor recognizes the reality that there are a lot of difficulties. 61 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:23.040 UH, whatever, you're gonna whatever, you disclose about your abuse, 62 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.959 and then when you add in insular community factors like you often find in faith 63 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:33.680 based communities, that become even harder. Um, what are some patterns have 64 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:40.600 you noticed when spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are being tied together? You know, 65 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.639 kind of going into what I was saying a minute ago. I think 66 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.319 you know, we all know sexual abuses about is about power and control, 67 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:53.360 right, and I think when you have that power and control can be even 68 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.879 kind of ramped up a little bit when it is a faith leader who is 69 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.279 the person who is abusing you, in a sense that, Um, you 70 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.000 know, these are the people that, again, we're taught as children, 71 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:08.319 we look to them for for Moral Guidance and guidance, uh, in how 72 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.920 we should live our lives in the best possible way, you know, and 73 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.959 that are that our creator wanted us to live. And so when someone's exposure 74 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.000 often, you know, you think about about children who are sexually abused at 75 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.800 a young age. Pre pubess it right, it's often their first exposure to 76 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.480 sexuality at all. And so to have it come from a person who is 77 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.920 your faith leader, Um, who? Who? Who wants these things to 78 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:36.759 remain silent and hidden? And then, Um, it's all being so taboo 79 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:42.560 and horrible. I mean I just think it leads to all of this being 80 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.920 so covered up and institutions have a vested interest in keeping these cases covered up 81 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.800 because if they come forward they lose that moral guidance right again. That's what 82 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:56.600 people look to from churches. They look for guidance on these hard, difficult 83 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.000 to answer questions about life and what we're doing and difficult moments in our life 84 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:05.319 people often look to spiritual leadership for and so if that kind of feeling where 85 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:11.319 people look to two churches for guidance in roads because of this abuse of power, 86 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.639 Um, well than then they have nothing left. So so churches, 87 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:16.480 I think across the board. This is really tied, you know, to 88 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.800 the Roman Catholic Church, but that's mostly because they've gotten the most attention in 89 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.720 the news. But I think every religious institution has sort of a vested interest 90 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:30.560 in covering up cases of sexual abuse that happened within their ranks. Um, 91 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.360 tell us a little bit of a little bit about your experience with snap. 92 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:42.920 You know, snap is h I love snap because snap sort of helped me 93 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.399 figure out what I want to do with my life, and that's a real 94 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:47.879 selfish way of talking about this, but you know, I didn't and I 95 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.319 didn't really think I'd be working a child sexual abuse for a career and then, 96 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:55.720 you know, I had the chance to work with Barbara and David. 97 00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.360 I was an assistant for them about almost twelve years ago now, and I 98 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.439 got to see kind of firsthand the resilience and strength of survivors and how, 99 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:08.240 Um, you know, when when we protect children, when we make sure 100 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:12.279 that that kids are protected and raised and healthy and loving communities and families, 101 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.399 then we have a positive impact on things like homelessness, poverty, uh, 102 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.959 life expectancy, all of these things. and to me, you know, 103 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:27.040 protecting children Um became so important to me because I saw the example of these 104 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.639 people who weren't protected as children and had to deal with the effects of childhood 105 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:36.040 trauma and and what they did and the organization that they created to try to 106 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:40.160 try to stop that from happening. And so, because of them, I 107 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:44.720 took an interest in child sexual abuse child abuse prevention as a career. I 108 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.560 worked with them at snap for a while before I moved and went to start 109 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.759 working at prevent child abuse America, which is a wonderful organization that focuses on 110 00:07:51.839 --> 00:08:00.560 primary prevention, education and legislation. Wonderful Organization, but Um, one thing 111 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.240 that I didn't get a P C A that I that I get it snap, 112 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:05.360 and that really sustains me, because this is again, Rachel, you 113 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.319 know this. This is difficult work, these are hard stories. Um, 114 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.959 seeing the strength and resilience of the survivors who have put this issue on their 115 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.439 back in order to protect, you know, the next generation, if you 116 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.120 will, Um, is really, really something that kind of humbles me and 117 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:28.160 is impressive. And I stand on the shoulders of survivors every day doing work 118 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.320 to try to advance this cause. And so one thing that I always think 119 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.399 of when I think of snap is it really demonstrates the true power of a 120 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:41.320 network and how bringing people together helps not only the survivors who initially came together 121 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.360 for help, but it helps educate communities. That helps educate those of us, 122 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.559 like me, are lucky enough to not have lived experience right and helps 123 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:52.759 bring people into the cause, into the solution, um, that we're trying 124 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.879 to drive to prevent any other child or vulnerable adult from being sexually abused in 125 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.600 the future. And that kind of is always what I think of what I 126 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.480 think of snap. Okay, Um, what are some of the best advice 127 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:09.200 you could give to victims out there? I'll try to answer this in in 128 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.279 three ways. It sounds kind of kind of Pithy, but I promise you 129 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.399 would really mean this. And the first is to trust in and believe yourself. 130 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.480 You know, we know one of the effects of of of sexual abuse, 131 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.039 of childhood trauma is, you know, feelings of self, of self 132 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.279 blame and doubt and guilt, like like it's your fault. You know that 133 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.799 this happened to you, and I think, Um, you know, I 134 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.759 think it's important that survivors learned to listen to themselves and to trust themselves and 135 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:37.960 realize you don't have to be as hard on yourself. It's also your fault, 136 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.519 this was something that happened to you. And then second I think that 137 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.080 you know, once you get to the point of trusting yourself, that this 138 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.120 wasn't your fault. I think is is to tell someone, to talk to 139 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.960 someone, talk to a friend, of family member, anybody you love or 140 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.399 trust, because one thing that one of the snap founders, David Classy, 141 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.519 always always said, which I found just to be so was that, you 142 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.600 know, talking is is hard. Speaking is hard, but living in silence 143 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:09.960 is a death sentence, and I think that's kind of true. You know, 144 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.840 the more that people just keep in what happened to them to themselves, 145 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.679 the harder it is. But but there are folks out there who will share 146 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.840 that burden with you and Um, I hope you will talk to them. 147 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:22.399 And then, and then the next thing after that is is, you know, 148 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.360 once you once you found that the courage to come forward, it's to 149 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.320 recognize that a journey of healing is not a linear point a to point B. 150 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:33.840 It's a it's a circle and it's a roller coaster. There's gonna be 151 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.919 ups and downs along the way. You'RE gonna move forward at tremendous speed and 152 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.279 then you're gonna backslide. You know, there will be times where you're feeling 153 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:45.879 just on top of the world and something might might trigger you or activate a 154 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:50.159 memory and it'll it'll make you feel like you're healing has has knocked back and 155 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:52.519 the survivors, some survivors I've worked with, you know, kind of take 156 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.840 that when they recognize that things aren't going perfectly the way that they want them 157 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.000 to it. They're still struggling with the memories and they're still struggling with trauma. 158 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.600 You know, that's not on you. That's not a failure on you 159 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.480 as a as a survivor or a person or someone trying to heal. It's 160 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.320 just the reality of dealing with trauma and so I think you know, ultimately 161 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.960 this kind of boils down to be kind to yourself and trust yourself and then 162 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.399 remember that there are folks out there who who want to help and want to 163 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:24.919 want to support you along the way. What are some resources out there that 164 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:31.480 many survivors find helpful? Sure, so I'll speak to the resources that we've, 165 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.879 you know, over the years, spent the most energy on at snap, 166 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:37.799 because that's what people have come to us have been most helpful. But 167 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.080 first is in terms of peer support, and at snap we do that be 168 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:46.519 via peer support group meeting. So kind of similar to things like someone who 169 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.039 who've been to some like a or n a might be familiar, but you 170 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.480 leave your title, all of that at the door when you come together in 171 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:58.200 this room. You're all just survivors and you're there just to share experiences uh 172 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.320 in a safe and non judgmental community. Um, it's not a place where 173 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.879 you're gonna come and you're gonna get told what to do. It's just the 174 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.480 place where you can share what you're going through with other people who who will 175 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.360 recognize it. We also, of course, do. They'll provide linkages to 176 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.039 services that survivors might need, and I think that's something that that all survivors, 177 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.919 not just clergy abuse but any kind of survivor, will need. is 178 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.480 is someone who not is a therapist and likely an attorney if folks are looking 179 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:31.080 for justice, but not just any therapist or attorney, but people who are 180 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:37.320 trauma informed in the reality of how sexual abuse or childhood trauma or trauma adulthood 181 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.519 manifests, because some folks, while they might be trying to do the right 182 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.559 thing, they don't necessarily get it. Maybe they weren't trained, they weren't 183 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.279 you know, they didn't go through trauma inform training in school, whatever it 184 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:54.679 may be. But there is a you know, it is important to recognize 185 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.120 that some traum some survivors are going to be a little bit more anti about 186 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.879 their case right might be a little bit more communicative with the attorney, and 187 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.360 so you have to have an attorney who recognizes that and isn't going to be 188 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.120 annoyed by that, are frustrated by it, but recognize that this is a 189 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.919 trauma response. And so what we have done over the years is we've collected. 190 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.480 We we collect resources and referrals from survivors who say, Hey, I 191 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.559 had a really good experience with, you know, Dr a in New York 192 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.080 City. So the next time a survivor comes to us we can say, 193 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.480 Hey, we've never worked with Dr A, but we know that survivors have 194 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.639 said that they're a good person. But what I always tell as well, 195 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.159 this kind of goes back to US saying about trust yourself, is that, 196 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.600 you know, what ultimately comes down to is your individual rapport right, how 197 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.600 you feel with the professional you're working with. And so it doesn't matter if 198 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.279 people have had a really great time with Dr a. If you go in 199 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.840 there and you're not that comfortable, hey, that makes total sense, we 200 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.279 can help you. Know you should find someone else. And so it all 201 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.279 really comes down to that, you know, personal kind of feeling, you 202 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.360 know, and then again it kind of one last thing is it's similar to 203 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:00.879 pere support, but but a little of it on the outside, which is 204 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.960 kind of like mentorship, right, like someone else's walk, the walk who's 205 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.840 been there, that you can kind of have a one on one relationship with, 206 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.039 to text, email with time to time, to say hey on facebook, 207 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.080 whatever. It might be, but just someone who you know you can 208 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.440 turn to when things go bad. Those are the main kind of things that 209 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.320 we do, you know, from a survivor's support perspective. But we also, 210 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:24.159 of course, advocate for survivors. We advocate legislatively, primarily for things 211 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.519 like statute limitations reform, which we know is the number one barrier to survivors 212 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.240 receiving justice. Um. We educate for things like mandatory reporting and the removal 213 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.679 of clergy penitent privilege, which is basically an exception that allows clergy to to 214 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.159 not be considered mandated reporting. And then we advocate for survivors in the media. 215 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.559 You know, when we're talking about most of our folks are are. 216 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.519 It's, you know, forgive the pond, but really is David and Goliath, 217 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.840 because it's an individual survivor going against a giant religious institution that could often 218 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.399 feel outnumbered. We help them get their stories in their side, into the 219 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.600 into the media, so that folks can see, you know, what an 220 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:05.799 Individu you survivor goes through Um and and that's been a major reason. Really 221 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.600 the media has been one of the major reasons that we've seen improvements in institutional 222 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.039 response to child sexual abuse. Over, have you ever gone, I had 223 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.000 to go against a police department just because of, uh, them doing a 224 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:24.960 poor job of reporting the abuse? Yeah, that's a that is a sad 225 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.919 reality is that. You know, not all departments are created equal. And 226 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.480 there I have, I have definitely had many a survivor who we've had to 227 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.679 work with who they've said, Hey, I've reported a report to them, 228 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:37.919 the abuse, to the police, and they told me it couldn't happen. 229 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.960 You know, we know that father, Father Mike wouldn't do that and ignored 230 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.320 them. Um packed for those those of you who saw spotlight right, you 231 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.600 saw the complicit nature of the Boston Police Department there in that case. So, 232 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.320 yeah, there's no doubt that that's a problem, one of the kind 233 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:58.440 of you know, it's certainly not a silver lining, but when you are 234 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.840 going up against the government and stitution in that way, there are at least 235 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.120 other avenues that you can get to around it. You know, you can. 236 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.159 We can go to district attorneys, we can go to inspect your General 237 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.720 Um, UH departments within in state government, right and have them do an 238 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.559 investigation the police if they're not doing the right thing. Sometimes you can talk 239 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.600 to federal level agents if there has been something that you know makes at that 240 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.720 level, such as crossing state lines. But the reality is, I recognize 241 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:32.759 it, that working within the justice system for survivors often isn't really a pathway 242 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:37.120 to justice and can be retriggering and re traumatizing in many ways. And so 243 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.240 we do and I think one thing, you know, we do encourage survivors 244 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.879 to report. Always. We always encourage survivors to make sure you've got someone 245 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.159 you can trust with you. Make sure someone who could be there to hold 246 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.639 your hand, you know, just stand behind you, help you project strength 247 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.039 as you're going and it's not easy. Never is Um and, and you're 248 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.600 right, Rachel, not all, not all police departments, are created equal 249 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:11.599 here. What does snap do to educate the communities? So that's really where 250 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.519 media is our biggest partner. And and you know, like I said, 251 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.119 helping survivors get their story into the local paper, state paper, whatever it 252 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.319 may be, um not only helps, you know, humanize the story of 253 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.799 abuse that people are going through, but what people people will read those stories. 254 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.039 Like we were talking about the beginning here, right, like people don't 255 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.359 want to just raise their hand and start a conversation about child sexual abuse. 256 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.920 But when you're reading, you know, news on the internet or your Sunday 257 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.319 morning paper, whatever it might be, they come across these stories and people 258 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.480 will engage with them that way and I think that's really one of the most 259 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.799 critical things that we can continue to do, is to push those narras. 260 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.440 But we also put a ton of resources out there. You know, we 261 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.079 we have we have an annual conference everyly, every year we have free quarterly 262 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:59.720 mini conferences where we try to highlight survivor stories, where we try to high 263 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.880 high advocate advocacy angles, we try to highlight healing modalities, really trying to 264 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.119 put as much free content out there via social media and our website so that 265 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.160 survivors can access it when they need family, friends, people are trying to 266 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.799 learn about the situation can as well, um, because really it does come 267 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.559 down to the fact that, uh, you know, abuse happens in silence, 268 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.319 but but healing happens in community and the more people that we educate about 269 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.480 it and bring into that community, you know, the better chance we have 270 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:33.839 of eradicating CS. Fair enough, Um, how do you think the churches 271 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:40.920 could be better at responding to sexual abuse? This to me is really easy. 272 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.880 Mandate, mandate outside reporting, you know, report to secular authorities. 273 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.640 You know, if you look at all of these churches right now, uh, 274 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.720 Pope Francis was just in the in the the news over the weekend for 275 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.640 for acknowledging that his own new abuse laws, you know, hadn't made much 276 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.599 of a difference. And the reality is is because there is nothing new about 277 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.559 about the abuse laws that he put in. All they did was mandate further 278 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.440 reporting, bishops, reporting up to bishops. And you know, the Southern 279 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.240 Baptist Convention, we saw the same thing in the report that came out in 280 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.400 August. Right everything was mandated to be reported internally. And, like I 281 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.759 said at the beginning of this, you know religious institutions, they're always going 282 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.680 to put their reputation first because their reputation is really what sustains them as an 283 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.079 organization. And so I think any church that truly wants to make a difference, 284 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.680 and to be clear, I'm talking with abroad brush, but there are 285 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.680 parishes, there are individual level diocese, there are churches that have done a 286 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.759 great job in in individual level reporting to, you know, their their police, 287 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:44.319 to district attorneys, into the Attorney General. But Um, really it 288 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:49.119 comes down to knowing that you can't fix all of these problems yourself. You 289 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.920 can't fix all of these things internally and things need to be done outside secularly. 290 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.359 It just goes for every institution. We're seeing the same kind of problem 291 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:02.119 in universities right where multiple sexual assault scandals in several big ten universities at all 292 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.200 did the same thing, all internally reported. All there there needs to be 293 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:14.559 outside secular involvement. What do you do for self care? Mm Hmm, 294 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.519 not enough. How's that for an answer? Um, you know, I 295 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.440 like to read. You know I like to read. Before I had my 296 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.839 son, I'd like to play video games with that one's out, so now 297 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.599 I'm mostly just playing with them on the floor instead. But Um, you 298 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.759 know, uh, honestly, just being outside and being in nature is a 299 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.440 really kind of healing centering thing for me. You know, helps me, 300 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.160 Um, relax after after a long day of work, and I know that 301 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.559 the same is true of many UH folks that I work with. You know, 302 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.279 just finding some time to be outside in some green space, which, 303 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.279 you know, I live in downtown Chicago, so I don't have a ton 304 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.200 of green space, but we do have a pretty big lakes. I can 305 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:57.000 at least go go sit by that. Um, but you know, I 306 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:02.440 think, I think really the best way of putting is just trying to find 307 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.680 time where I can sit and think to myself, you know, and just 308 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.799 I don't have to worry about obligations for the moment. Just be myself, 309 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.680 UM, alone. That's that's the most important thing I do for self care 310 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:22.400 these days. Okay, and how has this impacted your faith? Um, 311 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.920 you know, negatively. Um, it's hard to it's hard to be in 312 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:32.839 this work and have the same view of a religious institution. You know that 313 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.440 that I did previously. At the same time, though, you know, 314 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.119 faith is really deeply personal and I think one thing that working at snap especially 315 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:45.319 has showed me is how people are able to take their faith and extricate it 316 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.960 from the institution at large. You know, I think I've spoken to some 317 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.200 survivors who have said that they, you know, they are abused, abused 318 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.000 at a church, and they will never be able to believe in God again. 319 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.960 I've talked to some survivors who were abused at a church and they said, 320 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.200 you know, they know that their God wanted more for them than that 321 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.960 and you know, they weren't going to let the abuse take away that relationship. 322 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.599 And there's some who moved churches or found a new relationship with with their 323 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.200 creator and what it may be. For me personally, it's kind of eliminated 324 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.160 religion from my life. But Um, you know, I think it really 325 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:26.880 comes down to finding how these institutions fit into your life. Do they provide 326 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.720 a benefit to you? And if they do, that is wonderful, and 327 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.759 if they don't, then they don't and and find something else and move on. 328 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.799 Um. Is there anything else you would like to add or anything else 329 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.759 you'd like to say? Yeah, I mean I just you know, to 330 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.160 anybody listening to this, I know that it's not easy to come forward, 331 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:51.119 it really isn't. But I hope that if you are listening to a podcast 332 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.119 like Rachel on recovery, that that you're you're trying to do something for yourself, 333 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.240 and so I hope that you'll you'll take this and find someone that you 334 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:02.440 can talk to, a friend at trusted family member. There's organizations like rain 335 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:04.960 that have great chat services. I mean even that could be good for you, 336 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.240 but find someone to speak to, find someone to help ease your burdens 337 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.160 with. You know, there are organizations out there, whether it's to do 338 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.880 like snap or one of the myriad out there. They are looking to help. 339 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.400 There are organizations out there that want want to help you and want to 340 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.000 make sure you're not going through this journey alone, and so I hope that 341 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:23.960 you know this podcast and Rachel, thank you for doing this. I think 342 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.880 it's important. Um, I hope that this encourages you to to, you 343 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:32.799 know, get out there, advocate for yourself and help, you know, 344 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.079 lay some of your burdens down a little bit. Okay, Um, all 345 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.440 right, thanks, Zach, for coming on the show and telling us a 346 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:44.720 little bit about yourself and snap, and maybe we'll do a recap later. 347 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:47.839 Um. All right, guys, thanks for listening. This is Rachel and 348 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:52.599 recovery. Um, we're tuning out and you can always follow us on your 349 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.279 favorite platform for a podcast or social media, and always, if you have 350 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.000 any questions, reach out to Rachel on recovery DOT com. Picks

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