Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi. This is Rachel Mircouru. We're here with Danielle and she's going to tell us a little bit about herself and tell her story about being a spouse of a survivor.
Danielle?
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you so much, Rachel, for having me. I'm Danielle Sebastian, and my story really started eight years ago when I was newly married to my husband and he had a stepfirold daughter. But things started to not go well in our relationship and I started noticed some things that just didn't seem quite right and things just kind of hit rock bottom to the point where I was ready to leave. I had told my husband that I just had enough. I couldn't get to the bottom of what was going on with our relationship and we couldn't fix it. When my husband was able to reveal for the first time to anyone a terrible history of childhood abuse at the Harrison Catholic Church, and this was obviously a game changer for us, I felt hope for the first time that I finally had something to put my finger on that we could try to address. However, I found myself not having any trauma history, being very naive as to what that recovery process would look like for my husband. And I really thought that in a year or two, we would go to counseling, he would talk about it, and we would create new patterns in our relationship. But what I learned is that that is not the case. And in a lot of times, a lot of cases like this, things get worse before they get better. However, eight years later, we are happy and healthy and he is in the best he's ever been in his life. And I ended up writing my story. I told my husband that I just felt like we made it through for a reason. And I found very few resources for spouses, especially of male surviving partners, and I wanted to help. So that's a little bit of my story.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: What were some resources you found helpful?
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Well, I think I just touched on that a little bit that I really didn't find much. I found very little for spouse. It for partners, especially of male survivors.
And after I started writing my book, I went back and looked and I'm like, maybe I missed something.
And when I looked, they're just so little.
What I could say is that after the case, I did find a couple of resources that I would recommend to people, obviously in addition to my book and my story. But I did find a helpful website called www.livingwell.org and it's actually Australian. It's an Australian website that is specifically dedicated towards male survivors. But there's a really good section for partners, so that is one resource that I would recommend.
The only other resource that I found that was actually helpful, to be honest, was Victims No Longer by Mike Liu. It's actually for male survivors. But there's one chapter in there for partners that I found very helpful and.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: That was there's not a lot. The lady that wrote Courage to Heal wrote a book and I think there's probably a handful of books. There's like three or four.
I think the one I remember, it's the same lady that Allies of I think it's allies of Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse, I think is the name. Our allies and healing. Yes. Allies and healing.
I read that book. I found that helpful. And there's a couple other I interviewed a guy, Steve, he did a whole episode on it. He has a whole website and a networking for spouses of survivors. And then there's also I think Snap has a program for spouses.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: They do, yes, I did look at.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: And they're great organization. And then always say David Pittman. Together we hill. He's a male survivor and he has a lot of resources on his show or on his website, I think. So that's something else to consider.
And always come here. We have tons of research right here on Rachel and recovery.
What are the issues you see in relationships with partners of sexual abuse?
[00:05:26] Speaker B: This is tough. This is a tough question because there are a lot however, I wanted to touch on three, really, that I think hit the meat of what a partner feels can feel in a relationship. And the ones that are kind of some of the saddest because they were impacted so much, your husband, the survivor, is impacted so much that these end up being the things that come out in relationships. And the first one are trust issues. So obviously survivors trusted someone who ended up hurting them. So they have difficulties trusting anyone. And it's difficult for a partner to understand because you love them and they know you love them, but something is keeping them from getting close. And when you don't understand what's going on, it's very difficult as a partner to feel that you're not good enough that you can't be trusted by this person. So that's really difficult for a partner. The second thing that is really impactful in a relationship is this emotional instability. So most of the wives that I talk to talk about these roller coaster of emotions that occur that have no reasoning to the partner. It seems like one day things are going great, the next day one little comet can send their husband into a tailspin. And there's a lot of guilt and shame towards the partner. Often that occurs that really isn't our fault. It was the fact that because of their trauma past, they sensed some sort of danger or some sort of emotional reaction to something you said, not really you. It's their past that's coming out in a physical response that's difficult for the partner.
And the third one I want to touch on is an avoidance for some male survivors. And what I found is that this avoidance and numbing that can occur is one of the largest reasons that women end up seeking divorce. And my husband had some extreme withdrawal, meaning in the face of any sort of conflict or any sort of issues or he'd have a bad day at work, he would go to the basement and I'm talking about for days and not talk to anyone. This sense of withdrawal and isolation and avoidance was really distressing. And the reason that this is so hard for partners is because they feel like their partner doesn't care about them, when really that isn't the case. It's their survival mechanism trying to protect them. So those are the three things that I hear repeatedly that are often confused by a partner if you don't understand how that history.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Yes.
As somebody who has been on both sides as a partner and as a survivor, it can be really tough, especially with men because I feel like women, even if we are sexually abused, I think we have a few more tools in the toolbox than they do because they just well, they struggle with opening up anyways. But you add childhood sexual abuse on top of that.
They can't talk about it.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: No, they've been told to suck it up, they've been told to move on. They don't discuss their feelings, they don't have close relationship with friends and it's easier for them to isolate.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Yes, I would definitely agree with that.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: It's very difficult for them to put into words, if they ever can, to be honest, how they're feeling and how this is playing out enough for a relationship.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yes. In what ways has this impacted the most of the marriages you've seen?
[00:09:55] Speaker B: I'm going to be honest, most marriages don't make it. They don't make it. But I think that that is why I am on such a mission. Because I know that women partners, partners of any survivor with more education and knowing what to expect, that will help, that will make things easier. And we also need to get away from these men feeling this shame and guilt and humiliation and holding it all in and start talking about it.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. I've had so many failed relationships and this was definitely part of the as a survivor, you attract other survivors in your dating world.
And I can say firsthand they don't know how to talk about it. And if they do, it's just really rare. And most of them have not done any of the healing process because to start the healing process, you have to admit what happened.
And on top of that, you not only admit, but you have to go and seek help and go through treatment because it is a long journey.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: My husband's secret was meant to I.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Don'T know if you've probably seen the movie Spotlight.
They had these guys that were 80 years old coming out talking about they had not told anybody and they're in their eighty s.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: The average age for a male survivor, especially of sexual abuse, to disclose or to have even their first conversation with somebody is 55 years old.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: That's so much of your life.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: And it's hard holding that secret and.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Having mechanism, admitting it is one thing. Taking the next steps is a whole other thing.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: Yes. And even when they'd have that first discussion at 55, it usually takes five to ten years more for them to have an in depth discussion and actually do something about it.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Wow.
How crazy it is that they have to hold on to that for so long.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: It breaks my heart.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: Well, that's why we do what we do.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yes, 100%.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: How do you think it has impacted survivors and their partners on parenting?
[00:12:27] Speaker B: This is such a good question. I think that we know a lot about obviously, these trust issues come to play significantly when you're having children. Right.
Because you're going to feel very overprotective because you don't trust people. So that overprotectiveness is something that I hear a lot. The need to control the environment, who they're around, is something that comes to play.
My husband, when we had our son and he was about the age where the abuse started, that is a huge trigger for him. So that causes a whole different dynamic into the relationship.
And then now I have a teenager, and we have a whole nother set of triggers that's occurring because we're losing control. Right. It's time for her to live.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: And my husband I can only imagine.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: It'S a big, bad, scary world out there. And so I think that the way it affects parenting is pretty much forever, and new things will come up as different ages occur. So it's just really important to have that self awareness of how this trauma can be impacting your relationship with your kids just as much as it is your spouse.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
How has this impacted partner's health?
[00:14:05] Speaker B: This is another really sad situation for me. I didn't need the Aces research to know that this trauma impacted my husband's health permanently.
The behaviors that occur because of the trauma, it just it takes a toll.
Insomnia, destructive behaviors, both physically and mentally, the stress, all of those things. I remember not even knowing what had happened to my husband and thinking that he just seemed like an older person than his age. And I think it has to do with the toll that this takes, especially for men holding it up.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I've done a lot, and EMDR on top of doing neurofeedback has really helped with my insomnia, and I just did.
And then I also had talked to a sleep doctor, and you might want to listen to a couple of those episodes on how to sleep with having this level of complex PTSD.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Absolutely.
I get it. That's when the memories and those things come that you can't control. And I get it. I get why it's so hard. And then I also had someone talk about a survivor, talk about being in bed with someone is the most vulnerable situation you can put yourself into.
And I hadn't thought about it that way. How difficult that would be to be in that vulnerable position where you're falling asleep, you're essentially unconscious with somebody and how difficult that is to be that vulnerable. Okay.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: How has this impacted survivors and partners relationship with their parents and siblings?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: A great question. And I have found in most cases that survivors had very complicated relationship with their parents and siblings even when the abuse didn't happen, which is rare because.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: A lot of it happens in the home.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Happens in the home and obviously that leads to someone probably knowing or someone not believing the survivor, all those type of things. But even when the abuse doesn't happen in the house, it's a very complicated relationship with parents and there's just a lot of like in my case, his parents didn't know. So when that came out, all this guilt and how could this have happened under my watch? And all those terrible feelings come up and it creates a lot of confusion and there's a lot to get through. There's a lot to get through with parents and families in both cases.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: I totally agree.
Has it impacted the survivors and their partner's community and social life?
[00:17:25] Speaker B: That's really another interesting question because I would say the biggest impact to the community is what we've already talked about and that's loneliness is a common theme. And because usually the abuse is a secret, it becomes especially difficult both for the survivor and as a partner to bring others in and to seek help outside of that close family knit because you don't want to violate your partner's need for privacy.
But the bottom line is that everybody needs help in this situation. And the key that I found that I learned the hard way by doing it wrong, to be honest, is having that discussion with your husband that you need help, you both need help. But who are those trusted people? Where is that safe space that you can get that help that you can both agree on?
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that, especially with men and the vulnerability of it all.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Because if they have trust issues and you've disclosed to someone without letting them know or without getting their permission first, guess what? That trust is affected again. And I know that's not what you're intending to do at all, right? You're just trying to get some help of your own. So that would be my number one thing that I would recommend there is you're both going to need help. So start having those discussions.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: How has it impacted survivors and their partners careers?
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Well, I think that I have seen a trend where male survivors will choose their careers differently because often they choose to be first responder or in the military. And I think that those of us who are experiencing this would understand that. Right. They want to be helped. Nobody helped them, so they want to be a help. But I had a different perspective of it after talking to my husband for years. He actually chose that profession because he didn't intend for his secret to ever come out. And he chose being a fireman because essentially he felt like, hey, this is a great thing if I can be somebody's hero and maybe I won't make it and then I will die and no one will know my secret.
So I think that really opened my eyes to just how self destructive that shame is. So I think that's an interesting way that careers are impacted. I would say that the other way that careers are impacted is just that.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Well, and I know in the military, a lot of that toxicity, especially in families, is the same in the military because the military, depending on what rank and what branch, can be incredibly toxic.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: But that feels familiar, especially if it's a familiar type of abuse.
And we tend to go to places that feel familiar because that's what we like or less what we think we like because that's what we know, because.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: It'S familiar and then perpetuates the cycle. Yes.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Do you feel like this has impacted finances, over finances on survivors and their spouse?
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yes. And I hear a lot about their self destructive behavior with finances as well. Right. So overspending or gambling and even the opposite in some cases where there's an over control in the relationship of where the money is spent. I didn't personally have those issues, but what we suffered from significantly was the financial impact of all of the help that we needed.
The counselors, the family, marriage support that we needed and the counseling that he had to get. It was very financially taxing. We had a team. We were lucky enough to be able to have a team of support. And that hit us.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Keep I don't know if you still have all that stuff, but you could reach out to Grace. They work with suing churches and stuff and to help get financing, get some of that back. I don't know if that's something you've looked into or even if you wanted to go down that road because that's a very challenging path to go down.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: We have problem trying to hold this person.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
After this, I will give you information on Boz in Boz law. He works with tons and tons of cases just like this.
So how has this impacted your faith?
[00:23:04] Speaker B: I think that's one of the saddest things about this.
Obviously, my situation and where the abuse occurred here is very complicated. As far as a faith perspective. I think actually my husband's done better with separating what happened to him at the hands of the church from his faith and actually from the church in general. I, however, am not doing so well. There I see firsthand how little the church has taken accountability for what has happened in the past and they have taken no accountability for this continuing. And I'm angry and my faith has significantly been impacted by well, I understand.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: That if you want to go back to church. I don't know if you guys are back in church or not, but I think the Methodist and the Presbyterian just with the nomination PCA. I go to a PCA church and they pay for my counseling and they help me out. And they're not even the church that hurt know they have done an excellent job of caring for I recommend, you know, if you do want to go back to church and that's a huge step when you've lived through something like this, whether it's you or your partner.
And if you do want to continue not just a relationship with God, but a relationship with his community and ask the church if they're trauma informed and contact grace. Like if you go to a church and you're like you ask them, hey, would you be willing to do this type of training to have your staff, your church trained on how to respond to these situations, et cetera, and see how they respond and see what programs they have and what resources they have available?
So that's something I would encourage you to do as a believer myself, because I completely understand when something happens like that at a church or with a pastor and it is swept under the rug or you're abandoned or you're betrayed, because I feel like that's the ultimate betrayal a church can do.
And they sit there and they do nothing that's very hard to mend.
But we have to understand that this is not just churches are made up of sinners and abusers at times, and that's not who God is.
And that's sometimes really hard to hear.
Is there anything else you would like to share?
[00:26:22] Speaker B: No, I just thank you so much for all the work that you're doing and for listening to my story.
I am on a mission to help otherwise who have gone through what we have gone through and to stop the silence both for male survivors and for those who are struggling in relationships with them. And there are some things that people can do right away that wives who are struggling can do right away to start creating better patterns and okay.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: All right, thanks for listening, guys. Tune in Thursday at 10:00 a.m.. Always follow us on your faithful social media platform and podcast platform. If you have any questions, reach out to Rachel on recovery.com and subscribe to us on YouTube.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Thanks. Bye.
