Episode Transcript
Hi, this is Rachel in recovery. We're here with Mike Leach. He's going to tell us a little bit about himself and then he's going to answer some questions for us. So Mike, tell us something about yourself. Uh, yes. I am a pastor in southwest Missouri. I pastor at Calvary of Neosho, and I also am a writer. I write for several several different publications and my own blog. And I have just recently started a project with my friend David Pittman called trauma to trauma. And yeah, that's A and I married and I have a 2 kiddos. Isaiah and Hannah, and like I said, we live in southwest Missouri. OK, alright.
So. What has been your experience working with spiritual abuse in the church?
Yeah, that's kind. I mean in some ways that's kind of a a difficult question just because.
Being. Of pastor, you've probably experienced those types of things differently. Um, I think sometimes you can see there's a culture of. That I think that you could call at least bordering on spiritual abuse sometimes in churches that would be for either sometimes for the pastor himself could be like an abusive culture that could harm pastors. But then I think also there's times when the the culture itself is is harmful for others. And so my experience with spiritual abuse, I'm just I've had you know some some instances with just difficult. Uh, pastorates, but uh. Yeah, that's like I said, that's kind of a kind of a tough question from a for, from a pastoral perspective as far as my experience. Because I don't think from a pastor standpoint, I don't know that we experienced that nearly as much as those within our congregation may be susceptible to those types of things. And maybe younger pastors would experience that more. If they're not having good leadership.
Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think sometimes that's, I mean that's one of the things that you can sometimes see, is that just the lack of. Yeah, as a younger pastor, sometimes coming into the church, sometimes there's culture and certain things that I don't know. I don't know if I would totally feel comfortable calling it spiritual abuse, but there's things that that can certainly be abusive. To a pastor and pastors family, most definitely. Um, how do you feel? Like the church cultivates church culture, cultivates victim blaming? Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. I I think that.
I think that there is definitely a a culture to protect the institution instead of of victims or survivors. There is certainly a propensity to like if a a victim or or someone a survivor comes and says that something has happened. I think a lot of times the church is first instinct is to try to figure out how to protect the church, protect the church's reputation. Those types of things and we don't tend to have our first response being protected survivors or victims. And so I think that in and of itself kind of can create a culture of victim shaming where you feel as if if you've shared something, you feel as if you are doing something to cause harm to the church or to cause harm to the reputation of Christ or the reputation of the pastor or whatever. And so I think that that certainly. Creates a culture where there's a victim, victim shaming and then as you go on down the process sometimes, I mean there are some, some situations that are very, very bad about that where a survivor who has to, you know who. Shares their story may not be believed, and not just not believed, but actually. Same and called all sorts of horrendous, horrendous names.
Yes, um. And also thinking more on the lines of the purity culture being used against them. Yeah, I think that certainly, I think that certainly can happen. What what do you, what do you mean when you say that? I feel like. I don't know, especially when they talk about it in youth group, there's no room or like there's not been space at least when I was there or I don't know what they do today cause the knowledge is better and some churches are much better at this. But you know, I guess I felt like purity was shoved down our throats, but nobody ever talked about what happens when you are abused in those situations. Alright, yeah, that you feel as if you have. Yeah, when they give those illustrations that are just very unfortunate and unhelpful and can be incredibly harmful of things like a rose that doesn't have its petals left or a piece of chocolate cake that's been passed around, I don't think that that really is sensitive sometimes to those who those who even like intention are intentionally made mistakes by their own bad choices. It's not good for them, but it's doubly, I think, harmful for those who. Who. Have had those types of things taken from them and then to feel as if they are part of. Yeah, part of the guilt of that, I think certainly. So I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think that can definitely play into that.
How do you think the church could do better with helping sexual abuse victims?
Oh man. I mean, I think there's a ton of ways that the church can do better with that. One is, I think, just being having open lines of communication, making it to where there are. Knowing that, knowing that if you make a, if you Share your story that you are going to, there's going to be a posture of belief, a posture of being taken seriously, to have proper channels that are there for those conversations. I think also helping churches to understand that preferential offenders are far more common than the stranger danger and so thinking about ways to protect doing training for churches, church leaders. It goes far beyond just policy and procedures. It goes beyond, it goes to just opening up those conversations. I mean, I think that that's been one of the things that we've seen where we've had help, where we're just honest about those things and speaking those in such a way where I don't believe in our congregation. I think you would you'd probably feel really uncomfortable if you were a one who was abusing others because those are those are things that I address often from the pulpit. And those were things that just within the culture of our church, I think you would not feel, not feel nearly as welcome. So I think that those are some ways that you can do that, that you can help to create a culture there, just a culture of openness and vulnerability and those types of things where we continually respond to vulnerability with love instead of with.
Same or any of those types of things.
How do you think the church could do better with helping with the bestic violence? Yeah, definitely. That's another good question. I think it's the same answer in some ways, but I think it also has a few different things because domestic, domestic violence is one of those things that we, I think, talk about even less than things like sexual abuse. I think there's cultural changes, I think training and preaching on and discipleship and those types of things when talking to men about what it means to be a good husband and how those two things. Do not match at all, but also having things within your culture where again, there's places of safety. I think taking those things serious, having some even having things like a safe house, having things that were families that we know are going to be open to receiving someone who needs to get out. I think also having pastors who are trained and how to help is is a good thing. There's some good resources out there. There's a one recently, a win win home hurts I think is, is the name of it by Jeremy Pierre and then what was the other one? There's another one that just came out pretty recently in that area as well. And I think that I'm, I'm excited to see that. I'm excited to see some conversations opening up on that because the reality is, is that. Just statistically speaking, women are probably safer walking on the streets than many. Many of them are probably safer walking on the streets than they are going to their own home, just statistically speaking. And so it's definitely something that we need to be looking at.
What are things? That trigger you working in the church today?
What do you mean, what do you mean by that? Help me out with that question just, well, I mean I don't know how much of this you see on a daily basis. And yeah, like how much spiritual abuse I see on a daily basis. How how much working with abuse victims, I guess second second hand trauma, I guess. OK. So, yeah, what are the things that trigger me for having worked with those who are survivors? What are things that trigger me or are you, are you kind of speaking to like red flags or or more sort of things that actually are difficult for me that are kind of triggering difficult for you and triggering for you as somebody on the outside? Yeah, yeah. I mean, in some ways, I'm actually, I mean, I'm, I'm not entirely on the outside. Doing my own I have. I have my own stories and in many ways. And so there's things with that that I'm not just a pastor who has not had significant trauma in my own past. And so it's a little bit difficult of a question because I think the things that trigger me may not necessarily trigger me. Just because I'm a pastor probably triggers me because of certain certain things that I've had experience in my own life. But to answer that question, some of the triggers are. Red flags or some of those things. There are sometimes aspects of very controlling personalities. Those those are often triggering. I mean, I can, I can share one having been to a church. I had a really difficult experience at a previous previous surge where I had probably. This is probably an exaggeration in some ways, but this is what it felt like to me was that for about an entire month I had just because
of a certain certain decisions that we had made, I had people coming into my office just wanting to yell at me and just. Up and down just really just lay into me and I had that happening almost daily and my office was right by where the the doorbell was to to get into the church and the phone would ring and those types of things. And I did not realize what kind of an impact that had on me. But when I went to my current church, which is man just been such a such a blessing for us, but going to my current church, I didn't realize for the first of the first probably month or so. Anytime the doorbell would ring, anytime the phone would ring, our secretary now she, she like, well handle so many of those things and filter, filter through those. But for me, anytime I would hear the doorbell or the phone ring, I would immediately get anxious just because I was assuming that it was going to be something like that, someone coming into to yell at me or something of that sort. And so I had to work through that. I had to work through just what is, you know, knowing and feeling safe. And so I know that that's something that there's several trigger terms, situations, a lot of those things for survivors within our churches. There can be things just as triggering even like reading, reading the Bible sometimes can be triggering for people and so just having to be sensitive to those types of things. OK. What are things that used to trigger you inside the church that you have overcome? Oh, I think I answered that one just now. Yeah, I mean, I think that would definitely be one of, you know, just.
Helping myself to know that, trying to remind myself that I am safe in certain situations has been difficult. And again, I know that for some they still do not feel safe and so they still have to continue to work through some of those triggers. But for me, it was just going through remembering the presence of Christ, that that Christ is with me no matter where, and that the present situation is not the same as past situations, and so that. Has helped me considerably just to kind of know that, to know that sometimes I may be having a trauma response more so than what is reality and so just kind of stop breathe, kind of ground myself and try to live in the moment rather than having the past impact the the present. Um. How has how has God helped you deal with the fundamentalism and legalism inside the church?
Um. Help me out with that. Help me out with that question. What do you give me kind of an example of what you're what you're meaning there. I mean if you've been to fundamentalism is legalism kind of you're in the Southern Baptist Arena, it's basically it's. Basically, we're funneling those, and legalism grows like a weed.
Yeah.
There can be. Yeah, I think how have we dealt with that again, I think it's just really it's, it's a matter of. Of. Actually wrestling with the scriptures. Um, and actually just not being. Not settling for comfortable answers, but allowing ourselves to be uncomfortable with some of the things that God's word and just being honest in those things. And I think also too just confronting some of those things when we see it and just just living and having authentic community with others I think is considerably helpful because I think fundamentalism and legalism and those types of things. I think what they do is often those those grow out of fear and and I think the more that we can see our sufficiency in Christ. And and our identity grounded in Jesus. The more, the more gospel there is. It really is if it's if it's true. Again that's one of those words that sometimes can just be like a just like a buzzword. You know like a Gospel center church. It can just be a buzzword. But if you truly are centered on the gospel and you. Which means you are going to be increasingly looking like and acting like and being like Jesus and responding like Jesus and all of those things that it's really hard for legalism. And fundamentalism and those things, depending on how you define them, it's really difficult for those to to to have a home there. And you can see that with how Jesus interacted with those who would be probably by some definitions legalistic fundamentalist. And so just seeing how Jesus interacted with them and if we're increasingly like Jesus, I think you're going to
see less and less of those things. And so I mean for me I would just say that the way that God rips those things out of my heart is by. A couple of things. One is just, uh, curiosity. Just increasing curiosity, being OK with asking questions, knowing that I could be wrong, but ultimately it's having my identity in Christ. That's what allows me to be curious. That's what allows me to ask questions, because I know that my identity in Jesus is unchanging. And so that helps with with some of the other other things. Um, I would also say that.
Probably about, oh, ten years ago, maybe something like that. God had me stumble upon John Newton, who is the guy who wrote Amazing Grace. That's how he's most known. But he had a ton of of hymns and poems and just a lot of letters and a lot of stuff that was just really helpful. And one of those for me that I think was really life changing was a little letter he wrote called on controversy and it was just about he was confronting a young man who was wanting to argue with everybody about. Reformed theology and just all sorts of things. And the Newton. The way that John Newton responded to this young man was just, it was changing for me because he helped me to see that if if we truly believe what we say we believe and then we're able to. Allow others to be molded and shaped by the Lord, and we don't have to, as Newton would say, bang notions in the head of people. We would. We don't have to do that. We can just entrust him to the Lord. And again, I think that's also a way that legalism and fundamentalism are battled is just your. Believing that God is in control and that God actually. Loves people more than we do, and he's able to shape and shepherd and all those things. And just entrusting others to God's care, I think also cuts the legs out of legalism and fundamentalism.
What is one thing you that you pray for that you'd want the most for the churches or for for the churches you work with today? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I I know it sounds really. Really simplistic, but the truth is there's just to be just to be in unity with Jesus, to to be in union with Christ, to know Jesus, to make him known. And that's really the key thing, is that that Christ would be our focus and that is that is the prayer. I think that that's the answer to so many of the different concerns and the questions and all those things that we have, I think gives us. Tells us how to live and how to walk and he and empowers and inspires and all of those things. And so just having a relationship with like a real true honest. Living relationship with Jesus. Again, I know that's one of those buzzwords, but I I don't mean that in the buzzword of way. I mean like, honestly, truly. Knowing Christ and being able to wrestle with hard things. And that's what I that's what I would pray for the church. And in that I think it means standing with Jesus. As he stands with the vulnerable and. Not just building an institution or anything like that, but just honestly, truly standing with Christ. Um, what advice would you give to ministers today that are dealing with spiritual abuse personally and in their congregation, or trying to help their congregations? Yeah, that's a good question. I think are are you meaning like if if a pastor is being spiritually abused by their congregation, do you mean if a pastor is spiritually abusing themselves? What do you what what angle are
spiritual abuse can come in all forms so. But, you know, either dealing with it personally or helping their congregation. Yeah.
I think it would if it's dealing with it. Personally, I think one is.
Again, having your identity in Jesus is going to be huge knowing that you don't have to be a punching bag. Trying to be and become a non anxious presence. I think it's gonna be huge. If you're just trying to change the culture and the church, I would say know that you've got some tough sledding. It's going to be difficult. Those types of things do not. Those idols do not fall easily and so we were able to be committed to being in in that for the long haul in some ways. But also know that you're not Jesus, you're not the savior. And so just keep I mean again I think it's, it's. Really pretty simple with a lot. I think it's preach, preach Jesus and live Jesus and love people. And as you continue to do that, I think you you begin to see a culture change. And I think there's others with specific situations. I mean I could give probably some more specific answers, but just kind of broadly speaking, that's really what I would say is just something clean to. Cleaner do this OK. What do you do for self-care?
Yeah, what about you for self-care? That's your question. One is my wife is amazing and so I am increasingly learning to trust my wife with myself care. So that is self-care is for me to trust my wife and if she. Senses and feels and thinks that I'm kind of going in a spot where I'm kind of going off the rails a little bit, or I've been working too hard or certain things are not gelling quite right with with what's going on in my internal world. I think she's able to read that and so I've learned to trust her also just. Spending time as much as I can in scripture and prayer, but then also it's doing some things just just woodworking. We're gonna walk reading, reading a good book that it doesn't have anything to do with the stuff that I'm I'm working on. Sometimes journaling and writing and those things can help as well. Really the big thing is just kind of being aware and and knowing myself and knowing whenever I'm getting to. Facts that are not healthy and trying to to do things to pull back from that. OK, well, is there anything else you'd like to add? No, I don't think so. I think that that's those are those are good questions. And I appreciate you. Having me on there. Alright guys, thanks for listening. This is Rachel. In recovery, Tune in on Thursdays at 10:00 AM. You can also follow us on your favorite podcast or on your favorite social media platform or if you have any questions, go to rachelandrecovery.com. Thanks.
