Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hi, this is Rachel and I
come week that a special guest today,
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Sarah Sarah, and she's a pastor
for churches. Right now she's going to
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tell us a little bit about herself
and then she's going to answer some questions
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about spiritual abuse. Hi. Like
Rachel said, I am a pastor of
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four churches in kind of the Rural
Ohio area. I am a recent seminary
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graduate and so these are my first
four churches that I've ever had. So
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I'm still learning, but I'm having
a lot of fun doing it. I
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married my spouse's named Abraham, so
or Sarah and Abraham, which is a
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really good, strong biblical couple name, I guess, and we are the
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parents of three cats named pickle,
Merril and moggy. So that's me,
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that's my that's my elevator speech.
Okay, here's some questions. What has
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been your experience working with spiritually abuse, spiritual abuse in this church? Well,
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I grew up it in the independent
Fundamental Baptist Church, which is a
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very strict it's not really a denomination, it's more of it's like a loose
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affiliation of Baptist churches and they are
very strict and very conservative and a lot
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of harmful messaging, I would say, came out of that. I don't
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think anyone in the church would like
come right out and say, yeah,
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abuse is good, we like abuse, but the theology that they taught and
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the lack of accountability that was present
in the church structure was kind of enabled
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abuse, I would say. So, could you allow so that elaborate?
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Oh go ahead, can you elaborate? Well, for instance, the Independent
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Fundamental Baptist church is not a denomination, like I said, and each church
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kind of has like each pastor of
each church kind of is the boss and
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if the pastor is doing something wrong, there's no one above him that you
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can go to. If a pastor
is abusive, there's not much you can
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do about it except for go to
the law if it's a criminal level of
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abuse. But yeah, there's not
really much accountability. Yeah, a very
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strict gender roles also in the IFB
like, women have to submit to men
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and no questioning it, women can't
speak in the church, and so I
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think they'll strict gender roles definitely enable
some abuse. How do you feel like
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the church? Cold of fates,
victim blamy? Yeah, well, actually,
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when I was an undergraduate, I
left the IFB and I majored in
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women's suddies and I really started studying
like feminist theology and victim centered theology,
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and then I actually did my thesis
on Rape Myths and Victim Blaming and Christian
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dating guides, so like books that
dating and marriage guides that Christians would read.
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And one thing that I found really
interesting when I was doing this research
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was there are there's an article by
Peter Glick and Susan Fisk that is about
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the concept of ambivalent sexism. Ambivalent
sexism says that there's two different kinds of
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sexism. So there's benevolent sexism,
which sees women as mothers, women as
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nurturing women as kind of needing to
be protected. So it's like not anti
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woman, it kind of puts women
on a pedestal, but it limits the
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roles that women can hold. And
on the other hand, there's hostile sexism
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which, like sees women, as, you know, sluts and terrible people
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and the you know, that's the
more violent, more harmful form of sexism.
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And these two kinds of sexism are
not totally separate. So you're not
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either a benevolent sexist or a hostile
sexist. These two things work together.
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So benevolent sexism kind of justifies violence, because women who step outside of those
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rules of protection, those mother really
nurturing roles, then bring it upon themselves.
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And I see how those kind of
this concept of ambivalent sexism merely played
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out in the IFB because it had
very strict gender roles. There are only
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certain things a woman was supposed to
do and if you step outside of that
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role, then you're no longer the
good woman who needs to be protected,
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you're now the bad woman who either
needs to be punished or, you know,
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brings it on herself because she stepped
outside of the protection of men.
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So okay. It's something that I
think was interesting. How do you think
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the church could do better with helping
with sexual use? SACTOS UM? I
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think first of all, just rethinking
those gender roles as a really important first
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step. The other thing I think
is really important is I have a deeper
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and more robust sexual ethic. I
think a lot of churches their sexual ethics
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are there's good sex and that's marital
sex, and there's bad sex and that's
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pretty marital sex and that's as far
as it goes. There's no nuances there
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and and that really allows for,
I think, a lot of sexual abuse
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to take place. Another thing I
talked about in my thesis was there's this
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idea in a lot of Christian dating
books that only bad girls say yes.
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So if a if a girl has
a teenage girl or a young woman has
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premarital sex, she's bad and it
doesn't matter what the nuances were or if
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it's consensual or not. And on
the other hand, only bad wives say
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no. And so on the other
hand, once you're married you can't say
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no to sex, and so then
that allows for a lot of domestic and
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marital abuse and allows that to be
justified. So I think rethinking our gender
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roles, rethinking our sexual ethics and
then just on a more practical level as
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a pastor, and right now I'm
a pastor in the United Methodist Church,
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so I'm no longer in the IFB
and I like the Methodist Church because it
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has that structure and that hierarchy.
So we have policies that we have to
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implement as pastors and if I don't
implement those policies I'm going to get fired
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from my job. So I have
that accountability. And so we call ours
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safe sanctuaries and they lay out things
like, if you work with kids,
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you have to have a background check
and people can't be alone with children in
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the church and and this allows and
here's who you report to if you hear
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about sexual abuse or any kind of
abuse taking place. And so it's all
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laid out and it's not like this
vague. It's not vague and everyone knows
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what to do when abuse takes place. And so I think that's really important
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and it's something that I like about
my denomination. You know, we don't
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always do everything perfectly and not everyone
follows those policies, unfortunately, and you
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still have cases of abuse, but
there are those guards that I think really
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protect especially children. How do you
think the church could do better with hoping,
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with domestic violence? Yeah, I
think again, those gender roles and
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those sexual ethics are really important for
us to rethink. I also think leaders
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should research how abuse works, because
I think a lot of us we assume
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we already know what abuse looks like. It looks like a man being mean
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and hitting and punching and and really
the fact is that a lot of abusers
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are very manipulative and they manipulate the
people around their victims to get them on
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their side, and that especially they
do this too leaders, because we have
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power and if we if they get
us on their side, they have our
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power and can use our power to
continue to abuse. So I think leaders
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should really know what abuse looks like. I recommend the book why does he
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do that? By Lundie Bancroft,
which is a really good book about what
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the nuances of abuse looks like in
the ways that people will, abusers will
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manipulate the people around their victims,
and it was really enlightening for me.
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It's a little bit of an older
book and I think there's some language in
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there that I might there's some like
Heterosex I think there's a heteronormative assumptions in
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this book, but I think overall
it's a really good book to read for
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any leader who wants to understand abuse
better. Question that's going to go off
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the books here. How do you
think scripture has been misused to abuse women
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or minorities or in that manner?
Right? I think the one I see
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the most is child abuse from scripture. So this idea of spare the Rod,
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spoil a child, which is not
exactly in scripture, but there's similar
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versus to that and people use that
to justify child abuse and some people,
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even in the IFB, also use
that to justify abusing their wives, and
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so I think that's one way.
Then all the chapters, all the verses
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about divorce, I think are often
used to get women to stay in abusive
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relationships even when they really need to
leave, and this idea of like divorce
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being the worst thing you can do
versus, you know, abusing women being
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the worst thing you can do.
So yeah, that's my thought. Okay,
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what are things that trigger you working
in the Church today? Um,
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well, I've done a lot of
I think I've done a lot of healing.
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So I think I used to be
very triggered in church and now my
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triggers, I think, are a
little bit more subtle. I think what
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triggers me is people criticizing my leadership
or people that don't like me or people,
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you know, when I make a
small mistake. I'm kind of a
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perfectionist because I grew up with a
verbally abusive father and so whenever I get
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criticism I'm like, oh no,
it's the end of the world. I'm
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a terrible person, which is not
true and not healthy position for leaders to
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take, and so that's something I
continue to work on. And then I
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think the other thing that maybe triggers
me is these very oversimplified sexual ethics that
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even, I think, even more
progressive churches tend to have, where you
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talk about pre marital sex is bad
and marital sex is good and that's all
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you talk about. That just I
don't know if it triggers me, but
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it bothers me and I will get
on my soapbox whenever I hear it.
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Yeah, now I get that.
Ooh. What are the things that used
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to trigger you inside the Church?
I think there's a time when I didn't
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go to church at all because of
just just being in a church building I
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found triggering, and so I kind
of stopped going to church for a few
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years. I ended up going back
to a universalist church, which really helped
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me because it was a church and
yet it wasn't this explicit Christian context.
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And went to a universalist church for
a while and ended up, through a
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long story, ended up in the
UMC, but it took a long time
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to get there because just being in
a church for a while I found triggering.
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Can You elaterate on anything specific?
I don't know, like some of
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the songs you would saying would be. I think there's some songs that Baptist
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sing which actually kind of like now, but this is on the other side
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of a lot of healing I've done
that talk about, you know, nothing
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but the blood of Jesus, or
just this like violent sounding which, you
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know, if it's in the context
of good theology, I don't think it's
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actually promoting violence, but in the
context of a church that does promote violence,
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to hear this theology of Atonement,
of about God killing his son and
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and blood and all the suffering and
that I found really triggering. How does
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God helped you heal with dealing with
fundamentalism and legalism inside the church? I
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think like we tend to project our
own experiences on to God and a lot
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of people kind of see God.
I think the most common is they see
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God through the Lens of their parents, especially father's, or a preacher.
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So growing up with an abusive father
and growing up in a, I would
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say an abusive church, it was
kind of hard to have a relationship with
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God and I think the way that
God helped was, you know, God
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doesn't care if you're angry at him
or her. God doesn't. God Can
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handle our anger and God can handle
our grief and God can handle our pain
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in a way that I think most
humans can't, and just God being there
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and being this stable force of grace
in my life that I could go to
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with any emotion and with any feeling. It took a long time to get
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there, but I think God is
patient to God was with me on that
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journey. So, Oh, what
is one thing that you pray for?
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Our want for your churches? Um, I want my churches I'm in the
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right now. I'm in the United
Methodist Church and if you know anything about
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the United Methodist Church, if you've
heard about it on the news, we
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are currently in a huge fight about
whether or not we're going to become lgbt
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affirming, and I think when it
comes to abuse, I mean just I
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want us to become lgbt affirming just
because that's the right thing to do,
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but also when it comes to abuse. We cannot fully address abuse unless we
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let go of these traditional gender roles
which are the driving force behind this anti
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lgbt movement in the church, this
idea that there's a place for men and
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a place for women and you don't
cross those lines. And I think we
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can give lip service to the idea
of being against abuse. We can have
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these policies and that's really important,
but I think the next step that we
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need to do is really get rid
of gender roles all together and or not
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necessarily get rid of gender roles,
but realize that they are socially constructed and
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be a little bit more flexible with
those gender roles so that so that we
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aren't perpetuating these rape myths and these
victim blaming attitudes. And I think in
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order for us to take that next
step, we have to become lgbt affirming.
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So that's what I pray for for
my church. What advice would you
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get ministers today that are dealing with
spiritual abuse personally or with their congregation?
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Yeah, I think my first thing
I would say is do your research.
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Have maybe do some research. See
if there are domestic violence shelters in your
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area, know their phone numbers,
if if they ever put on training events,
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see if you can go to those
and read these books and read the
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books I told you one. Dy
Bancroft has a lot of good books about
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this topic and just kind of know
what's going on. I would also say
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have a support group and because it
can be hard to address abuse in your
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church if you are a leader.
Thankfully, I've only had to do it
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one time in my career so far
where I had to call CPS because of
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an abuse case that was going on, and it's really hard to do.
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It is tough and it is triggering
and having a support group of people that
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you can talk to can be really, really helpful. Also, really I
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would suggest therapy for anyone, even
if you don't think you need it,
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because I think all leaders struggle with
this need to be liked and if you
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are addressing abuse in your church,
if you are rocking the boat in that
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area, you're not always going to
be liked. If you call CPS on
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someone, they probably won't like you
anymore, and so having that support and
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learning to get over that need to
be liked will make you a better leader
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and it will help you to keep
people safe. I would say my other
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my last advice is, well,
another thing I had. It is have
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policies. So if you're in a
denomination like the United Methodist Church, they
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require policies, but make sure you
have those policies in place of who gets
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to work with children, what the
boundaries are, what the limits are.
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How are you going to keep kids
safe and make sure everyone in your church
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that works with people knows those policies. And also, one thing I think
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a lot of us don't think about, make sure every group that meets in
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your Church building knows those policies and
signs them. The Methodist Church and a
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lot of other churches are having some
issues with this because the boy scouts of
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America are going bankrupt and a lot
of people are bringing up abuse cases,
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some of which happened in the boy
scouts, but the boy scouts met in
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specific church buildings and because there were
no policies decades ago in these abuse cases
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are coming up from past decades.
There were no policies back then, and
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so I think it's important to not
just have, you know, Sunday school
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and nursery workers sign this, but
if you have boy scouts or girl scouts
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who meet at Your Church building,
make sure they have these policies as well
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and review them often. Okay,
anything else you would like to add?
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Um? Let's see. I think
my other thing would be for leaders just
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be secure enough in your own faith
that you can listen to other people's stories
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of spiritual abuse without getting defensive,
and I think that can be a hard
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thing to do when someone is saying
this aspect of the faith hurt me and
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it triggers me and I don't want
to be in church and I don't want
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to hear it. It can be
easy to try to argue or try to
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convince them otherwise, but I would
suggest be secure in your own faith,
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in your own life that you can
hear these stories and just hear people out,
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because that's really what people need,
not arguments, but someone to listen.
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So yeah, do you have any
other questions for me? I guess
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that's really it, like I can't
think of anything else. So thanks for
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coming on my shows, Sarah,
thanks for having me, and I think
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that's it. Ladies and gentlemen,
this is Rachel and recovery. You can
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follow us on facebook, twitter,
Linkedin or you and you can watch us
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on almost every platform, whether that's
spotify, apple or Google. Thanks for
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listening and I will see you next
Thursday.
