Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hi, this is Rachel and recover. We're back with Pete Singer. He's
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gonna tell the rest of his journey
working with grace and his experience working in
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churches and with churches on spiritual abuse
and abuse within the church. Um.
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So we're gonna get to the questions. Um, how do you think the
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church could do better at helping with
domestic violence? Well, thanks for having
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me back, Rachel. I really
appreciate the chance to talk about this and
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just your concern and passion for for
these issues and putting this out there for
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people. How could the church do
a better job in responding to domestic violence,
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intimate partner violence? I think the
first step relates to the previous question,
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and that is ask the survivors.
Um, whenever we ask ourselves,
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how can we we respond to this
type of abuse, how can we respond
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to this type of trauma, the
first place we need to start is asking
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people who have experienced it so that
they can speak to what they need from
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that personal experience. I think,
Um, other things that become very important
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is to make sure that we have
a proper understanding of, Um, what
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we believe as a church about how
all people should be treated it's essential to
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recognize that nobody, whether they are
male or female or identify as gender nonconforming
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or nonsense gendered or however they may
identify, that that person never deserves to
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be abused period. And that's the
starting point. We have to be really
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careful with our theology, and this
is key to prevention and to response.
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It's very easy to have some theology
twisted, some theology used as a weapon,
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and that's especially true if theology has
a more rigidly defined power structure or
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structure of Um leadership submission within a
relationship Um. I'm I'm not about telling
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people to change their theology, but
what I would say is all theology has
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risk, some theology more than others. If, in my theology I believe
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that Jesus is the only way to
salvation, that theology has risk, that
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theology can be misused, that theology
can be used as a weapon, that
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doesn't necessarily mean that I have to
change my theology. And I'm not saying
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that theology should be changed or kept
the same, but what we do have
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to recognize is that if our theology
has risk, and we see that it
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has risk, if our theology can
be used or misused to inflict harm,
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then we have a responsibility to proactively
come against that. So, for example,
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theology that has a strong focus on
submission of the wife to the husband,
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for example, is a theology that
has been used and has been misused
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two justify domestic violence, intimate partner
violence. That has been used two deny
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its existence. It has been used
to minimize the Church's response. And so
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if that's a theology that is held, what are you doing to minimize that
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risk? What are you doing to
say absolutely not, that becomes incredibly important.
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We also have to be careful not
just about what we believe in our
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theology but intentionally and planfully address that
risk and how we preach and in how
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we teach and and how we provide
relationship counseling. These are essential factors,
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because it is very easy to take
some theologies and use them as definitely Um.
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I mean, I grew up in
household like that, so I completely
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grasp that. MM HMM. I'll
give you an example and I know so.
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First off, one, I know
that this is not the position that
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most people hold who, for example, Um, say that the male needs
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to be the head of the household
and the female needs to submit. And
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again I'm not endorsing or condemning any
one particular theological viewpoint. Um, but
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in that church that I referenced where
I grew up, that had a lot
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of abuse, one of the one
of the things that happened in that situation
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is um that the mom before the
Dad Um had killed one of his kids.
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Before the MOM had to kill the
dad to protect the rest of the
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family. Before that happened, the
mom went to the lead pastor of the
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Church and explained all of the abuse
that was happening and the pastor's response was
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the answer here is clear, you're
not properly submitting and when you properly submit
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the abuse will stop. So I
recognize that that is absolutely not where most
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people are. The vast majority of
people are who say that the male is
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the head of the household and the
female submits to the male. I recognize
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that that's where, not where most
of those people are, but we need
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to be aware that that interpretation is
out there and that that use of the
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theology as a weapon is out there
and in that particular example. Yeah,
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I know a lot of people are
just struggling just to get out of I
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guess fundamentalism and like. I don't
even know if like. They're so far
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off from what God wants us to
be. As as the church and as
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the body of Christ, it's to
the point where it doesn't need even resemble.
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There's no resemblance of two you know, to who God is and to
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who he you know, who we
are supposed to be representing, because,
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I mean, we're just using there's
been just so much use of scriptures to
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abuse people that it's just it's so
terrifying it is to see how scripture can
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be twisted, to see how scripture
can be misused to really accomplish almost anything
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that a person wants. I found
it interesting even just today as I was
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having Um uh it's spending some time
reading scripture. Um I'm reading in numbers
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right now, and and I get
to the story of Balim's ass the story
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of the Prophet Um. He was
approached by leaders of another nation as Israel
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was approaching in their return from Egypt, and these other leaders said, you
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know, you're you're a prophet.
Whoever you curse is cursed, whoever you
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bless is blessed. Pronounce a curse
on the Israelites. So that we can
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win in battle. And they offered
him money and they offered him power and
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his initial response was, I can
only say what God has said. I
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cannot say more just for the sake
of money and power. And so often
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what we see, and I'm not
calling out any one particular denomination or faith
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set, but we need to be
careful of this in the church as a
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whole because so often what ends up
happening is money, and especially power and
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reputation enters into the picture and then, like Baalum, we suddenly become willing
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to say more than what God said, to go beyond what God has said
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because there's power or there's money or
there's prestige or there's reputation involved. We
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need to be watchful of that as
a church and we cannot definitely no.
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I mean it was I mean I've
seen it as bad as I was on
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online dating agenda thing and a guy
used scripture to body shame people, to
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say, you know, I don't
talk about gluttony and talk about you know,
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how how David had beautiful why are
different people in the Bible had beautiful
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wives, and it just I was
just faber blasted by just I mean I
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mean I've heard the Bible used to
abuse people, but that was just a
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new load. Yeah, it's and
those are incredibly powerful works. I mean
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scripture is powerful. I mean when
Satan comes against Christ in the Wilderness,
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what does he use in his attack? Scripture. Scripture is powerful. It
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is powerful as a weapon against evil
and it is powerful as a weapon to
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abuse as well. Um, what
are things that trigger you working in the
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Church today, like the work that
you're doing right now. So I think
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things that that trigger or activate me. Um, just there's so many,
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so many ways that power is misused
and I want to be clear there.
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I have met so many people in
the church who use power. Well,
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I don't remember that if I mentioned
this story the last time that we talked,
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but when my wife and I were
looking for a church recently, Um,
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it was during the pandemic and so
we were looking online at different church
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services and came across this church and
the pastor was preaching and the pastor was
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preaching on humility. And so often
I've heard pastors preach about humility and how
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people in the church need to be
humble, but the pastor was preaching on
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that. Leaders in the church need
to be humble, that he needs to
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be humble, that as leaders they
need to listen to what their church says
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to them and that if people in
the church have concerns, people in the
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church need to be able to call
out those concerns. People in the church
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need to be able to tell the
pastor if they think that the pastor has
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made a mistake, need to be
able to confront and hold the pastor accountable,
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and that leadership in this church needs
to be humble. And you don't
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usually hear a sermon about how I
need to be humble. It's usually how
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you need to be humble. And
so I know that there are churches that
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understand how God intended power to be
used. So the misuse of power really
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activates me. And when people prioritize
the reputation of the church over safety,
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mm HMM, that the the institution
of the Church becomes more important than safety.
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And I can't tell you the number
of people with whom I've spoken that
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as they speak to me, oh
in tears, talk about how they have
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been told you can't let people know
what happened because if you let people know
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what happened, they won't respect what
we have to say about God and if
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they don't respect what people have,
what we say about God, then those
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people might go to hell. So
if you tell people what happened, you
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could be sending people to hell.
You don't want to send people to hell,
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now, do you? And so, in part it's prioritizing the reputation
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of the church over the safety of
that person and the healing of that person
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and ministering to that person. And
it's part, in part it's saying,
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you know what, if our church
gets a black I it's your fault for
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mentioning the abuse. It's not our
fault for doing the abuse, it's not
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the abuser's fault for doing the abuse, it's your fault for talking about the
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abuse. That activates me, because
in no way is that the case.
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In fact, that person speaking the
truth, calling out that they were abused,
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identifying their abuser. If anything,
is like what the prophets described as
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the person on the watch tower calling
out danger so that people can be saved,
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calling out danger so that others are
not hurt. And instead that person
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is being blamed for hurting the reputation
of the Church, hurting the Gospel,
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sending people to Hell and this is
a misuse of scripture. This is placing
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blame on the person who has already
been placing blame in that way or any
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other way, that blame is placed
on a victim, blame is placed on
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a survivor. I think honestly as
go ahead. Sorry, I talked to
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Non Christians and I talked to unbelievers, you know, like I had daughter,
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Dr Anna Salter, and she says, you know, she works with
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all these criminal cases inside the church
and I think it's doing the opposite.
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Well, we don't say anything,
we are actually pushing people away from Christ.
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We are, I mean, and
what I think one of the things
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that draws people to Christ is this
focus on the person that's and abuse,
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the person that's been hurt, the
person that's been marginalized, the person that's
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been abused, that that person is
prioritized, that there is I mean,
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it is just so clearly laid out
in scripture, not just as something that
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we need to do, but that
is central to the heart of God and
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and that is central to our relationship
with God, where it says Um,
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looking at the history of the kings
and of the Prophets, where we have
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it flat outstated that king would not
take care of the people that are hurting,
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that are vulnerable and in need,
and in so doing that king chose
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not to know God. Not Caring
for the vulnerable, not protecting the vulnerable,
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was choosing to not know God.
And then we go just a few
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chapters later and what do we have? We have scripture talking about a king
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who did take care of the poor
and the vulnerable, did make sure those
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protections were in place, and it
just flat out says the king took care
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of the vulnerable. Isn't that what
it means to know me, declares the
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Lord it. It isn't something we
should do. It's at the core of
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our faith. It's what it means
to know God. And so you're you're
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so right that that is I think
one of the things that draws people is
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seeing that that is at the heart
of God, that that needs to be
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at the heart of our faith.
Sometimes it seems like we've lost that,
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but I have met with many leaders
in the church and I've met with many
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people who don't have a formal leadership
role in the church but just are the
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church, who remember that that is
part of our DNA and that we need
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to hold on to that. What
are things that used to trigger you inside
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the Church that you have overcome?
Um? I think in large part those
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are just the things that have triggered
or activated me within the church and I
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don't necessarily see so much that Um. I guess it depends a little bit
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on what you mean by overcoming Um
them. I don't ever want to get
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to the point where those things I
just mentioned don't bother me. I always
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want them to bother me. Um. I think one of the things that
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is important, at least for me
in my journey, is recognizing that when
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I see a Christian leader, regardless
of how prominent they are as a Christian
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leader, displaying these things, but
that it is that Christian leader displaying those
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things, it is not my pastor
who preached that sermon on humility and it's
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not Christ. So I think for
me one of the things, Um has
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been not so much getting to the
point where those things don't bother me as
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much as being grounded in the understanding
that that person is not Jesus and that
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person, while they may represent a
significant portion of the church, is not
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the church. A lot of survivors
struggle with coming to church. A lot
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of survivors have a hard time.
They see how the church at times has
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responded and maybe they were abused within
the church or when they came forward.
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We're retraumatized by how the church responded
to them and that person is not going
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to necessarily automatically be great. I
can't wait for Sunday so I can go
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and get abused again. One of
the things that is very important is for
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us to allow a person to be
on a path and maybe right now they
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were so desperately hurt in the church
that if they step into a church they're
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going to have a flashback. If
they step into a church, they're going
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to have a panic attack. If
they step into a church, all they're
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going to see and all they're going
to hear is the exact same message that
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they were given when they came forward
about their abuse. We need to be
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able to honor and respect the place
that that per sin's at, to walk
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alongside that person at the pace that
they're moving and at the pace that God
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is working with them at, not
to dictate the pace that they take to
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overcome some of those things, not
to dictate their pace towards forgiveness, not
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to dictate their pace towards coming back
to church, but to rely on God
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to work with the person on that
and then to just be available to walk
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alongside that person. As somebody who
has had to leave the church a couple
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of times in her life because of
spiritual abuse and just like the abuse from
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the church. I mean I know
a lot of people it takes them a
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few months, sometimes it takes a
few years to even want to step into
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the church. I think even when
I was going going to seminary for the
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first when I went to seminary,
I almost had a panic attack because I
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was like, these people know scripture
better than me and they can use scripture
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more so to abuse me than anybody
else, because the more knowledge they have,
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the more power they can have to
use against me. You know,
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I can usually hold my own against
most people in a congregation as far as
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scriptural knowledge, but that was absolutely
terrifying to me and I was very thankful.
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The opposite was true once I came
to seminary. So cool. Have
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you read Diane Langberg her I actually
had to hear her speak at Covenant Seminary,
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Seminary and I got to have have
her. I got to spend a
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two day conference with her. Awesome, for very cool. In Diane's Book
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Redeeming Power, she talks about sources
of power, Um, and and you
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talked about just one of those sources, right. There is is knowledge as
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a source of power, language as
a source of power, physical size as
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a source of power. Um.
Yeah, and so you're you're you're saying
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exactly some of those things that Diana
is talking about about people having power,
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that power of knowledge and of language
and then using it, or it can
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be using used for good as much
as it can be used for evil.
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I mean it's a powerful sword.
Yeah, absolutely. Um. How Has
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God helped you with dealing with the
fundamentalism and the legalism inside the church?
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M Um. So, just personally, I grew up in uh the I
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F B independent fundamentalist Baptist Church,
so I had to work through some things
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Um related to that. Um,
I think. Um. I also want
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to be incredibly clear that I have
met some people that Um are within fundamentalism
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and recognize this dissonance, but haven't
but don't know yet what to do with
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it, and I don't I don't
want to come with a condescending view towards
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people who are within fundamentalism, and
I don't want to say Um, everybody
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and fundamentalism is Um, is in
need of whatever it might be. But
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my personal experience with fundamentalism, and
I'm separating out fundamentalism, I guess in
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my head I've got a more limited
view of what is fundamentalism than some people
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might have. When I think of
stereotypical fundamentalism, UM, I've had to
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work through the fact that they're not
Jesus. I've had to work through Um,
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when you grow up hearing the same
message over and over and over again,
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and it's not just a message,
but it's a message that's given by
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God, and to not hold that
message is and believe that message is clear
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indication that you're going to hell.
Um. It takes a while to work
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through some of that. It takes
a while, Um, and I think
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it's something that also doesn't necessarily totally
go away, Um, and that you
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still deal with at times and still
work through at times. Um. And
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I think it's important for me anyway
to recognize, Um, that not everyone
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within those environments and within even that
what I would consider a stereotypically fundamentalists faith
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system, not everyone holds those us
and some people don't. Some people haven't
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discovered some of the more dangerous sides
of that faith system. Some people are
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on a journey of discovery but haven't
figured out how to leave yet. Um,
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and in some cases I mean I
think we see a lot of dynamics
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on an individual level that play out
at a systemic level. and Um,
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we see a lot in in like
a situation of domestic or intimate partner violence,
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or even after a person recognizes that
they're being abused, it is very
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difficult to leave that abusive relationship and
there are so many complex, complex reasons
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for that. And when we talk
about an abusive faith community, I think
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we talk about a lot of those
same dynamics, but a little bit more,
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even on a systemic level, where
it is that abusive faith community that
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has taken on the role of the
abusive partner. And now we have a
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hard time leaving, even if we
know it might be abusive, even if
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we can see the harm. It's
just so hard to leave, not because
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of a lack of courage, not
because of a lack of commitment, but
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for the same complex reasons that complicate
leaving an abusive intimate partner relationship. It
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complicates leaving an abusive spiritual relationship with
an abusive faith community. It's also,
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I think, important for for me
it's been im to recognize that if I
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come against theology with Um, this
is what the latest scientific research shows,
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that's not going to do any good. Um, because at that point I'm
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trying to say, all right,
you're telling me what God says, so
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I'll tell you what people say.
It's not gonna work. Um, it's
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what may work. Is Okay,
we'll engage on theology then. Okay,
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so you know, you might say
theologically that this is required. Well,
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here's theologically why it might not actually
be so engaging theologically, because you're gonna
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lose the argument if they're saying this
is what God says and you reply,
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well, this is what people say, whether that's accurate or or not,
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and I'm not saying that God actually
is saying the things that they said,
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but in their view, you know, you're gonna lose Um. And then
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I think it's also important to recognize
that, whether we agree with them or
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not, there is room for more
conservative views to be held safely, but
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we need to take a proactive approach, recognizing the risks there are also risks
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that come with more liberal views as
well as more conservative views. There are
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risks that come with any belief system
and any individual belief. We have to
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be vigilant to identify those risks and
then say, does that risk actually indicate
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that maybe my belief is not accurate, or does that risk indicate that,
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even though I still hold to my
belief, I need to take some proactive
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steps to try and limit how this
belief is abused? All right, guys,
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thanks for listening. Uh Pete's gonna
be back next week. I always
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follow this on your favorite platform for
social media or on podcast, and if
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00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:23.559
you have any questions I want to
reach out or learn more about Rachel and
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00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:28.440
recovery, I always go to Rachel
and recovery Dot Com. Thanks for listening.
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Tune in next week at ten am
on Thursday
