Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey guys, we're back with Pete
Singer with the rest of his journey with
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grace and his experience with spiritual abuse. Okay, Um, what are some
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scriptures used to abuse? I think
just about every scripture in the Bible can
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be twisted and abused and in so
doing can be used to hurt people,
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to abuse people, to silence people. Um. And so it's very important
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that we are open to all of
scripture and whenever anyone quotes the scripture,
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to look for context, to look
for true meaning, to watch is this
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a self serving interpretation, and to
dig deeper and if something about it just
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doesn't ring true or feels off,
trust your gut and consult with somebody else
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too, um, go to another
faith leader who might have a different take
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on what forgiveness means, who might
have a different take on what corporal punishment
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means and whether or not we're required
to do corporal punishment of kids today.
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Um. And so it would be
really important if it if it doesn't feel
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quite right, don't just accept one
person's word that it is. Seek counsel.
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There is strength in a multitude of
counselors. There's wisdom and a multitude
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of counselors get their opinions on.
Is this a valid way to interpret this
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passage? Is there some other way
that it may be interpreted? Does this
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seem off to you? But a
couple of things that I've seen frequently misused.
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Almost any corporal punishment passage I've seen
misused Um and I've seen it misused
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both when it comes to to Um
corporal punishment passages related to children or corporal
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punishment passages related to adults. And
just of interesting note, there are far
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more scripture versus that appear to order
corporal punishment of adults than appear to possibly
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order corporal punishment of children. Um. So any passage of scripture that talks
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about corporal punishment can be twisted and
misused. Any scripture unforgiveness, on repentance,
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on conflict resolution, can be twisted
and misused. Many passages of scripture
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that talk about conflict resolution are talking
about conflict resolution between people of relatively equal
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power. Yes, and if we
take conflict resolution strategies that are intended for
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people of relatively equal power and insist
that they be applied when that power is
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not equal, we have taken that
scripture out of context. We have misused
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it, misinterpreted it, misapplied it
and in so doing can cause great harm
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to people. When we understand,
and scripture even does recognize that, when
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there is a power differential dynamics change. Almost any scripture that talks about authority,
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whether it's the authority of parents the
authority of Church leaders, can be
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twisted and used to justify abuse.
You have to do what I say because
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God has placed me an authority over
you. And see this scripture passage says
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you need to obey me because I'm
your pastor your elder, your parents,
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your whatever it might be. Any
scripture passage that talks about leaders who have
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sinned can be misused. You can't
remove me from ministry for this. Look,
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David stayed the king after what he
did with Bathsheba, and that was
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murder. Even if we don't acknowledge
that it was rape, we can at
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least acknowledge that there was murder.
And you know what I've done, I
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don't think is as bad as murder. So since David was left in his
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position of authority, I can be
left in my position of authority. Right
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and Um, we see that ability
to misuse and twist that scripture two justify
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abuse, to push in action against
abuse, to silence victims by saying nothing's
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gonna Happen. Look, David was
left in power, nothing happened. All
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these other people were left in power, nothing happened. This is how the
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church is going to deal with it. So you may as well keep your
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mouth shut because nothing's gonna Happen.
The story of Mary and Joseph. I've
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heard a person on the radio proclaim
Mary was probably fourteen when she first had
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sex with Joseph and that seemed to
be okay. Mary was a teenager when
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the Holy Spirit came on her and
that seemed to be okay. So why
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are you complaining about me touching you? You're sixteen, you're older than she
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was. Scriptures that talk about well, if you don't cry out, then
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you were complicit can be misused and
weaponized. Scripture that addresses sex sexuality can
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be weaponized if your church believes that
homosexuality is a sin and we're talking same
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sex abuse. Often the victim will
not have control over their bodily responses.
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The body does what it does,
just like if you clap your hands in
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front of somebody's face, they're going
to blink whether they want to or not.
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The body responds whether it wants to
or not, and that means sometimes
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a person will have a physical reaction
to the abuse and then the perpetrator can
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say, well, you had this
physical reaction, obviously you enjoyed it.
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You had this physical reaction, obviously
you are a participant. Do you really
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want to know the church? I
want to let the church know that you
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had an affair with me. Do
you really want to let the church know
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that you're gay, because you know
we're the same sex, same gender,
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and you had that physical response,
so clearly you're gay. Do you really
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want them to know that? And
when these are just twisted lies by the
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perpetrator and their weaponizing scripture passages that
talk about public confession, when you combine
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that with not knowing the difference between
that that a power differential makes you are
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then compelling a victim to confess their
role in their own abuse, which is
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hideous. And the perpetrator can twist
that scripture, can use it as a
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threat. You're going to have to
confess in front of the entire congregation for
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what you did. So these are
just a few examples of concepts that are
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in scripture. There are too many
individual verses to list, but concepts that
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are in scripture that can be twisted
and misused, and that again goes back
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to highlight why we have to preach
about these things, because if you preach
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about these things, it will be
harder to deceive the person. Yes,
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I feel like that's something that needs
to be done in churches, but most
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churches refused to talk on these topics. Unfortunately, we're afraid to M I
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mean they're dark. I Um.
Let's get one more question in Um.
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When we see recordings of abuse in
the Bible, such as lat and his
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daughters, which people, which most
people in mental health would I would see
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as the first record of a form
of victim blaming, are even David and
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Bathsheba. I think we've talked about
that a little bit. How how should
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we as Christians respond to these scriptures, as Christians to the world? I
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think first we need to acknowledge that
these are very difficult Um, don't invent
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a pat answer that sounds good.
To try and avoid having to wrestle through
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the implications of the story, to
try and to avoid having to wrestle through
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the implications of the passage. Those
are very difficult. Yeah, very difficult
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passages to wrestle through and I'm going
to admit that I haven't been able to
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wrestle through all of them and I
can't. If I were God, David
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would not still have been king.
I don't know. I cannot understand why
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God let David still be king.
I don't get that. We need to
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be able to acknowledge I don't get
that to not try and come up with
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some super spiritual sounding explanation to cover
up the fact that that just might not
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make much sense to our minds and
that it's okay. When I look at
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scripture, I see people questioning God
and I often see God being okay with
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that. I trust that God.
So this is for me. I'm not
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trying to force US on anyone.
I personally trust that that God knows what
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he's doing, that God knows what
God has in mind. But I don't
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get it. Um, so don't
just invent an answer to remove the need
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to wrestle through a very difficult passage
and let it be safe to question,
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let it be safe to struggle,
let it be safe to not understand,
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acknowledge the difficulty and preach about it, like I was saying, be for
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we have to preach about it.
And going back even to the story of
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David and Bathsheba, I don't get
why David stayed into power. But you
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know what I do get? I
do get that when David was confronted by
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the Prophet, the Prophet did not
come to David and say, David,
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you and Bathsheba sinned. The Prophet
came to David and said, David,
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you're the man. Bathsheba's never criticized
for her role. It is only David.
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So yes, I'm going to acknowledge
there are some parts of the story
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that I don't get. I'm also
going to say to me that is one
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of the clearest examples of don't you
dare blame the victim. God doesn't blame
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the victim. Don't you dare blame
the victim either. And so we have
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to wrestle through these. You can't
come up with just some pad answer.
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But even in a passage that's difficult, there may be some important truth that
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we can pull out, that we
can identify. Yeah, I think about
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a lot and his daughters, as
being a survivor of incested myself, Um,
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and how they blame the I feel
like in a lot of ways they
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I mean, if you read the
way that it's written from like a psychological
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or mental health a role, you'll
see that it's written as if it was
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written by the abuser himself. Because
they got him drunk, they were responsible.
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But if you really think about it, that's what an abuser would say.
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MM HMM. Yeah, and let's
look at the broader context as well.
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Right, this is a lot who, when a mob comes to his
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house, shoves his kids outside and
says here, do what you want with
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them exactly. So now we can
see not just one incident, but we
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can see a pattern here. And
nobody's saying that that was because he was
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drunk. And so maybe there's a
little more to the story than just yeah,
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they got him drunk. Yes,
and but I think it's important to
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acknowledge that's a hard passage. That
is a passage that can be abused to
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seriously wound a survivor, can be
weaponized. I don't believe that was the
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intent of the scripture, but it
can easily. I don't think it was
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either, but it's one of the
easiest passages to weaponize and people have been
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seriously hurt by that twisting. I
wish that I had a pat answer for
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these passages that I don't get,
these passages that to me, I say,
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why is that in the Bible?
In my view of God, God
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knows what's going to happen in the
future. That's my view of God.
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So that means, and it's also
my view, that God inspired scripture.
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So when God inspired that to be
written, he knew it would be misused.
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I don't understand that and I think
it's okay to not understand at least
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I hope it is, because there's
a lot of things I don't understand.
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I think there's a lot of things
that a lot of people don't understand,
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whether they acknowledge that or not.
M personally, Um, I think with
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that scripture I've learned is that when
we read the Bible as a whole,
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we have to remember who the author
is and the facts are there, but
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we have to analyze that from a
different perspective and realize, you know,
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the people that right history in general
are, you know, people who think
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they conquer. Yes, the author's
personality and perspective comes through and culture is
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the culture of the day is reflected
in the scripture and we have to look
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at a passage with those things in
mind. If we and we have to
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look at what is what literary form
is it taking? You know, for
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for example, there's there's a proverb
that says, yeah, go ahead beat
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your kid, it's not going to
kill him if he bleeds. I don't
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think the vast majority of people would
say, Oh, therefore it is okay
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to beat your kid till they bleed. So we have to understand the culture
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in which a scripture was written.
We have to also understand, um,
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that that particular passage often is is
even viewed as Sardonic humor of an an
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extreme statement that's intentionally extreme. Okay, we need to look at passages like
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the passage with a lot with awareness
that it's a different culture and we need
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to understand that culture to try and
tease out some of the truth and to
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try and understand part of that story. I would have to agree. Um,
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I think we have time for one
short question. How do you feel
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the church could do better with helping
sexual abuse victims? So my opinion on
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the number one most important thing that
the church needs to do to be able
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to effectively help and support survivors the
number one most important thing. M has
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asked the survivors number one most important
thing. Beyond that, some thoughts that
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may go into that. Once you
have asked the survivors. Any plan for
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caring for survivors include survivors. I've
had cancer, Um stage four cancer with
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a bad prognosis, and I have
no evidence of disease now, and that's
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great and I thank God for that. But if you haven't had cancer,
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you don't know what it's like to
have cancer and think you might die from
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it. You don't know what it's
like to be afraid that you're not going
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to be there for your kids as
they grow up, that you're not going
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to be there for your wife and
you're gonna leave her alone. You only
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know these things if you've experienced it. Once you've experienced it, I might
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listen to you more and I might
allow you to talk to me about it
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more. For some odd reason we
don't get how that applies with other forms
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of trauma, including abuse. Yes, we have a responsibility, whether we
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have endured abuse or not, but
don't overlook the fact that somebody who has
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not experienced abuse will never understand abuse
to the degree that somebody who has experienced
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abuse understands it. So in figuring
out how to help survivors and in helping
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survivors, the role of survivors is
central. I think there also needs to
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be a recognition that this is the
job of the church and not something that
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we are afraid of. When I
got cancer, the leaders of the Church
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all came over to my house and
prayed over me. The pastor then said,
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will it be okay if, in
Church on Sunday we take just fifteen
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minutes at the start of the service
to pray over you and your family?
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Small Church of about seventy people at
the time, and we said yes,
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that will be fine. So we
get there, we take the first fifteen
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minutes to pray over me, to
pray over my family, and then the
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pastor says, you know what,
we're just going to ditch the sermon today
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and we're going to take the entire
church service to pray over you and your
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family. And after the church service
one of our friends comes up to us
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and says, I know this is
gonna Sound Weird, can I do your
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laundry? And for the next year, every Saturday we put our dirty clothes
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out on the porch and every Sunday
they were returned clean and folded. It
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was months before we had to buy
a meal because of all the people bringing
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us meals and all the people giving
us gift cards. Why do we,
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as a church, see that that's
our role when somebody has cancer and we
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don't see that that's our role when
somebody's experienced abuse? So change our perception
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to recognize that this is caring for
somebody who is hurting, just like we
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would care for a person who has
cancered, just like we would care for
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a person going through another form of
of trauma. They don't get a lesser
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response just because it's abuse. They
get that same care and love. Collaboration
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between mental health, health care and
spiritual care is absolutely essential. It's not
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just about spiritual care. Spiritual care
is essential as it fits with where the
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person is at m because abuse causes
a deep spiritual wound, but abuse also
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causes a huge physical wound and abuse
causes a huge emotional and psychological wound,
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and we must allow the specialists in
those areas to do their work. When
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I had cancer, I went to
an oncologist, I didn't go to a
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foot doctor. So we collaborate with
these other supports that are needed. I
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would encourage, when the church has
the capacity to make care of survivors,
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a dedicated ministry. We've got a
youth group. There are probably more survivors
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in your church than there are youth. We've got a ministry to shut INS.
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There are probably more survivors in your
church than there are shed INS.
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A dedicated ministry to survivors. Not
just a survivor who is in an immediate
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crisis, absolutely a survivor who is
in an immediate crisis, but two survivors,
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because at least a quarter of your
church is survivors. Consult. Recognize
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that you don't have all the answers. No one church does, no one
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individual death. So consult. Look
at what other groups have for tools,
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whether it's grace, whether it's the
zero abuse project, whether it's freedom for
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the captives. Um Sacred spaces is
an organization that focuses on the Jewish faith
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community and has unbelievable resources available.
So see what organizations have resources available.
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Some of the resources that are there
from groups such as freedom for the captives.
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They have devotionals that are specifically geared
towards survivors. And we have to
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be careful because some devotionals that are
out there that are for devotionals for survivors
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are devotionals to try and make you
forgive the person right away, whether you're
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ready to or not. devotionals to
try and force a redemptive narrative, whether
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Um, that's there or not,
or whether you're at the point of that.
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So we have to be careful.
But a devotional that is able to
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walk through this, this difficult time
of questioning with a survivor good theology,
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theology that does not blame a victim, theology that recognizes the role of power,
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theology that recognizes how our identity in
Christ compels us to this work,
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that it is not an afterthought,
but it is central to who we are
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in Christ and it is central to
the heart of God. We have to
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tie it to our identity. We
have to be willing to spend money on
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it. We have to hold leaders
accountable not just for whether or not they
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abused or covered up abuse, but
also for whether or not they adequately care
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for survivors. We have to recognize
that everyone in the church plays a role
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in supporting survivors. We have to
preach about it and we have to understand
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trauma informed practice and the principles that
that this involves. Trauma informed practice,
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we have to see how are we
going to in our church or our ministry,
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our faith community, how are we
going to apply six key principles safety?
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How are we going to apply physical
safety, psychological safety, spiritual safety?
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How are we going to apply trustworthiness
and transparency? And we look at
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trustworthiness not as something we do to
get people to trust us, but we
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look at trustworthiness is something that we
do simply because we're called to be trustworthy.
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It's not a tool to get people
to trust us. We're just called
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to be trustworthy, worthy of trust. Nobody owes US Trust. It's only
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about us being called to act in
a way that is worthy of trust.
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And then we have transparency. Transparency
that is determined by what information we share,
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how that information is shared and when
that information is shared. Peer Support,
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that we recognize the central role that
must be played by survivors in any
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strategy that we develop, because nobody
will know what is needed more than survivors.
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So stop and listen to what the
survivors have to say. Collaboration and
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mutuality, that we work together,
we work together with survivors. We work
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together on our team. It's not
just one person making the decisions, but
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our team is working together and we
collaborate outside of our group. The pastor
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collaborates with the therapist. If everyone's
open to that, we collaborate outside of
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our group. The fifth principle is
empowerment, voice and choice. We recognize
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that abuse strips power and silences voices
and we are called to walk alongside people
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as they take back some of that
power, as they find their voice,
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and then humility in the face of
the historical, cultural and gender factors that
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cannot be separated from trauma. We
have to take those principles into account when
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we are considering how to support survivors. Grace actually has done a series of
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podcasts. Are Our final of the
six part series is next week looking at
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how each of these six principles applies
within the church and it looks at the
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scripture that supports each of those principles
and it practically looks at how do we
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create safety, how can we be
trustworthy, how compears support, how do
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we collaborate? How do we help
people find their voice and be empowered?
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And then next week is how do
we have humility in the face of the
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cultural, historical and gender factors,
and you can find each of those programs,
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reach an hour long, on our
youtube page. Um Pete will be
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back next week and tell us the
rest of the rest on grace and his
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experience with spiritual abuse. Um Pete, thanks for being here. Um thanks
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for having me. It's been an
honor. MM HMM. Alright, guys,
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thanks for listening. Uh Pete's gonna
be back next week. I always
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follow this on your favorite platform for
social media or on podcast, and if
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you have any questions, I want
to reach out or learn more about Rachel
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00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.440
and recovery, always go to Rachel
and recovery Dot Com. Thanks for listening.
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Tune in next week at ten am
on Thursday.
