Pete Singer with Grace on Spiritual Abuse Part 1

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.280 Hi, this is Rachel and recovery. We've got a special guest, Pete 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.000 Singer. He's going to tell us a little bit about himself. He works 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:12.400 with grace and Pete, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sure. 4 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:16.640 Well, my name is Pete Singer. I'm the executive director over at grace. 5 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:20.480 I'll talk a little bit more about what grace is and a little bit, 6 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.519 but just a little bit, about myself and my background. I'm a 7 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:33.039 clinical therapist working with kids who have experienced trauma and adult survivors of childhood trauma. 8 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:41.520 In addition to that, have worked pretty extensively with a variety of organizations, 9 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:47.520 schools, law firms, mental health clinics, healthcare clinics, victim advocacy 10 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:54.359 groups and such to better understand what trauma is and better understand trauma inform practice 11 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:00.679 Um and really, since probably about two thousand five have been working very hard 12 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:07.719 to better equip faith communities, with a focus on the U, with a 13 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:12.920 focus on Christian faith communities, because that's my background, to better recognize, 14 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:18.840 prevent and respond to abuse, and that might be child abuse or that might 15 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:26.319 be clergy abuse or other forms of abuse of power and spiritual abuse and harassment 16 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:32.640 which may occur within our churches and faith communities. So that's a little bit 17 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:38.319 about me. And before I got into the professional work, had some personal 18 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:44.359 experiences myself growing up in an I FB church, independent fundamentalist Baptist Church, 19 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:53.680 Um, where there was pretty rampant abuse, spiritual abuse, physical abuse, 20 00:01:53.719 --> 00:02:00.000 sexual abuse. Um. Most of the abuse impacted others far more directly than 21 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.920 and it did me. Um. But just seeing that and it it was 22 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.879 actually to the point where a couple of people died, um. And so 23 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:15.800 seeing that play out, I think it kind of laid the seed for recognizing 24 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.240 that as a Christian community, we need to do a better job of this. 25 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.159 And then when I was in high school, Um going to a school 26 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:30.039 that knowingly had a sex offender as one of the teachers and and knew that 27 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.639 that was the case, but didn't let anyone know, Um, that that 28 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:40.240 was the case. So seeing it play out within churches and faith communities as 29 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:44.639 a child, I think, really laid the groundwork for me to recognize that 30 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:51.479 this is something that needs to be addressed and addressed well, because those those 31 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.759 things that I just described, that church where people died, the Church that 32 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.919 let a known sex offender, UH, teaching their Christian school. These things 33 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:05.360 not reflect the heart of God. And then a little bit about I'm sorry, 34 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:09.719 go ahead, that is I was going to just say that is so 35 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:19.479 true and that is that, like really is so detrimental to I think, 36 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:24.879 how we as the Church represent Christ to the world at this moment in time. 37 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:32.280 Drastically, absolutely, and it gets to how how people see the church, 38 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:37.199 how people see Christians, and then, building on that, it gets 39 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:44.000 to how people see God, because we really do represent Christ, we represent 40 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:49.879 God, and how people see us as how people see God. And I 41 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.879 don't think this is how God wants to be represented. No, he does 42 00:03:53.960 --> 00:04:00.599 not. Um, I guess let's get an to tell us a little bit 43 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:08.560 about grace. Sure. Well, grace started back in two thousand four a 44 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.800 God by the name of Bosch Vijion, who was a child abuse prosecutor, 45 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:20.680 noticed that when he would prosecute a case of child abuse that intersected with a 46 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:28.279 church or Christian faith community, oftentimes there would be a large number of people 47 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.319 from that Church or ministry or faith community that showed up at the trial, 48 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:39.600 but almost invariably they would be showing up for the perpetrator. They would be 49 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.120 character witnesses. They would be people talking about how, oh, he couldn't 50 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:50.680 have done that because he's such a nice person, Um and and hardly ever 51 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:57.399 were they there for the victim, for the survivor. And Bos recognized that 52 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.279 this just simply did not reflect the heart of God. And so, Um, 53 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:06.000 he started grace, which stands for Godly response to abuse in the Christian 54 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:13.360 environment. Back in two thousand four he pulled together a team of just some 55 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:19.399 incredible, incredible experts in the field, both of uh, the fields of 56 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:26.120 child abuse. Child abuse was the initial focus, Um, and then in 57 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:32.160 theology and in really the intersection of faith and abuse and what happens when those 58 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:39.839 two things collide. Bobs himself, UM, brought in a fair amount of 59 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:47.600 capital, just reputational capital, because he is billy Graham's grandson, and so 60 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:54.600 he gathered these people around him and they began the work of Gralics and and 61 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:58.519 grace started back in two thousand four, like I said, really focused on 62 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:05.480 child abuse and focused on prevention, focused on equipping churches by training leaders, 63 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:12.959 by training whole congregations, by helping them have effective policies and procedures. But 64 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:19.279 over time the work of grace has expanded. It's expanded now so that, 65 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:25.879 while we still deal probably most extensively with child abuse, we also look at 66 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.199 other forms of abuse. We look at clergy abuse, we look at sexual 67 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:35.680 harassment, we look at spiritual abuse UH and other forms of misconduct that might 68 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:44.560 occur within a church setting, and we still have that very strong focus on 69 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.759 prevention, on on stopping the abuse from happening to the extent possible in the 70 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:57.279 first place, by adequately training leaders, by training entire congregations so that the 71 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:03.199 whole community can work to create a safe environment, a safe place to worship, 72 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:09.920 by looking at policies and procedures making sure that they don't just address one 73 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:14.240 hour on Sunday or two hours on Sunday, but that they're more comprehensive and 74 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:20.120 really lead the church to recognize that this isn't a box that we check off. 75 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:26.879 This is related to our identity in Christ this is something that reflects the 76 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.120 heart of God and that we are called to do and, as such, 77 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.519 can't just be something that we check a box and feel we're done with, 78 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.920 but it has to be something that we're actively engaged in, that has to 79 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:44.720 be tied to our culture, our identity Um and our entire view of God 80 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:50.040 and the Gospel, and so working with with churches preventatively to have these things 81 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:56.800 in place to grow a culture that recognizes this. And then now we also 82 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.920 do work real time so that when church first get an allegation, when they 83 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:09.720 first discover that there's a known offender teaching Sunday school or just attending, when 84 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:15.000 they first find out that there's been a minor on minor situation, what do 85 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:18.360 they do? Well, they can call grace and we can help walk them 86 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.240 through that situation and determine things like how do we respond to all the parties 87 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.560 that are involved? How do we talk about it to our broader congregation? 88 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.399 Do we speak about it at all outside of our congregation, to the broader 89 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.600 community Um? How do we make sure that people are treated well and people 90 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.159 are cared for who have been hurt? How do we make sure that our 91 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:43.279 response reflects the heart of God and cares for the survivor rather than doing whatever 92 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:48.879 we can to protect our reputation Um? So just working through those questions with 93 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:56.799 them real time and then after the fact, and we work with Um. 94 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.799 At this point, probably fifteen to twenty UH churches and ministries a year to 95 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:11.279 do investigations or assessments, and an investigation we typically have a known perpetrator who 96 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:18.720 did a specific act to some specific people and then we investigate. Um, 97 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.919 do these allegations appear credible? Are there other people who might be victims? 98 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.320 Um, did anyone at the church know about it and if they did, 99 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.000 when did they know about it and if they knew about it, how did 100 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:41.480 they respond? And were there policies and procedures and preventative measures in place when 101 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.320 this happened? And if they weren't there when it happened, are they in 102 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:50.120 place now? And so Um, we look at that during an investigation and 103 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.279 we look at very similar things during an assessment. And what sets an assessment 104 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:01.039 apart from an investigation is that with an investigation we have that designated perpetrator and 105 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.559 some specific things that we believe happened, and with an assessment we're more looking 106 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.080 at the overall culture of the Church or ministry. There may not be a 107 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:16.240 specific perpetrator and it may not be a specific act so much as just the 108 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.039 whole way that this church uses power, the whole way that this church views 109 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.240 a particular group, whether it's how they view kids, how they view women 110 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.039 or how they view some other group. But just how is that affecting the 111 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:35.679 overall culture of the organization and that how does that culture uh increase or decrease 112 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:41.840 vulnerabilities and and risk to abuse? No, I mean that's a huge issue 113 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:50.639 in the church. Um. What are ways churches can hold abusers accountable? 114 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.039 I think there are a lot of key things that churches can do to hold 115 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:03.320 abusers accountable. I think heading into it, just realizing even the word that 116 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:09.159 you use, their accountability, accountability, is actually a good thing. Accountability 117 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:15.799 isn't a punishment. Accountability is something that's put in place to help a person 118 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:22.879 grow in their walk. So even just choosing that term accountability and making sure 119 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:30.600 that we see this as it may be uncomfortable, but this is actually caring 120 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:37.320 for a perpetrator. If we hold them accountable that, if we hold that 121 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:43.200 perpetrator accountable, we can help them hurt fewer people. If we hold them 122 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:50.879 accountable, there may be some level of growth that can occur. And so 123 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:58.240 even just the idea of the word accountable helps us to understand the perspective that 124 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:03.080 we should have. Yes, we are protecting vulnerable people, but it's not 125 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:11.240 just a punishment on a perpetrator. It maybe Um something that the perpetrator truly 126 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:18.240 truly needs in their own journey as well. But things that we can do. 127 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.879 I'm going to go back to to what I was talking about before with 128 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:28.200 the three areas that that grace focuses on. Prevention, real time and then 129 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.000 after the fact, things that we can do to hold a perpetrator accountable. 130 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:43.639 preventatively, train leaders, train the entire community to recognize and respond to abuse. 131 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.120 A leader is not going to be able to hold a perpetrator accountable if 132 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:54.440 the leader has no clue what they're dealing with. So leaders have to recognize 133 00:12:54.879 --> 00:13:01.039 abuse dynamics. Leaders have to recognize and understand the concept of grooming and that 134 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.879 a perpetrator isn't just grooming their intended victim, but that perpetrator is grooming the 135 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.960 entire community, that perpetrator is grooming them, that the leader is the subject 136 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:20.120 of grooming from the perpetrator, and so we have to train leaders to recognize 137 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:26.039 this. Ideally, that training would be something that everybody going through a seminary 138 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.799 or a ministry program gets. Right now, you'll be lucky to find five 139 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.159 or ten percent of programs having anything close to that. And so we need 140 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:45.039 to expand that at the college, university seminary level. But, absent that, 141 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:52.480 in our own individual churches and in our denominations and associations and movements, 142 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.200 we need to make sure that leadership, whether that leader is called a pastor 143 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.000 that leader is called an elder, a Deacon, a teacher, whatever they 144 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:09.799 may be called, that leaders have this basic understanding of what is abuse, 145 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.399 what are the dynamics around it, what is grooming? How does this relate 146 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.039 to WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST? Because if it slips back to being a 147 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:22.240 checkbox, we're not going to do well, we're going to fail. But 148 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.360 if we keep it part of our identity in Christ then it becomes a hard 149 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:33.759 issue, not a check mark issue, and we need to make sure that 150 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:39.279 our communities as a whole are trained on this so that everybody plays a part 151 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:45.960 in creating a safe community, and not just that, but that people play 152 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.000 a part and holding leadership accountable. The church that I'm going to right now 153 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.120 we started going to in the middle of the pandemic. We we ended up 154 00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:03.279 having to choosing to switch churches during the pandemic and and we were listening to 155 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.000 services online. And so we get to this church and we listen to their 156 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:16.080 service online and the pastor is preaching about humility. And he's not preaching about 157 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.440 humility telling the church that they need to be humble. He's preaching about humility 158 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:26.120 saying the leaders of this church need to be humble and this is what you 159 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.279 should expect from us when it comes to humility, and if you see us 160 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:37.039 not being humble, you have every right to call us on it and if 161 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.159 we're not responding to you calling us and not being humble, making sure the 162 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.879 rest of the rest of the leadership at the Church knows about the concern, 163 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:52.519 because you deserve to have leaders who are humble and recognize that they're not the 164 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:58.200 source of power. God is. They're not the authority God is. We 165 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:06.919 go to that church so leaders that understand that helping churches, the broad church 166 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.360 community understand that so that they can hold their leaders accountable and so that they 167 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.000 can also help watch for kids and the vulnerable, because the leaders can't be 168 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:22.120 everywhere all at once. So that training for leaders and the community as a 169 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:32.000 whole clear policies and procedures that don't just say don't abuse a child if your 170 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.639 policy is don't abuse a child, your policy has failed. But a policy 171 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:42.960 that sets clear boundaries well ahead of time that aren't just going to make it 172 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:49.559 harder to abuse but are going to make it harder to groom that give quite 173 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:55.759 a bit of a buffer so that when you see something that makes you think, 174 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.120 hey, that violates the policy, you're not noticing that only after abuse 175 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:06.960 has already occurred, but hopefully noticing that allows you to prevent the abuse from 176 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.960 occurring in the first place. And that policy should have really clear boundaries, 177 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:18.799 really clear ways to respond to policy violations. It needs to not just cover 178 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.960 behavior at church, not just cover behavior in the building, because most abuse 179 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.920 occurs outside of the Church building and so the policy needs to go beyond the 180 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:37.839 church building. And people in the church need to know the policy, because 181 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:42.240 how are they going to help uphold the policy and recognize the culture that the 182 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:48.960 policy is supposed to represent if they don't know about the policy? So we 183 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:55.279 have to have education, we have to have clear policies, we have to 184 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:02.799 not wait until it's an issue. We have to preach about it. When 185 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:10.680 we preach about it we're helping to hold a perpetrator accountable. When we preach 186 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:15.960 about it, we are making it harder for the perpetrator to then twist scripture 187 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.440 and abuse people with that scripture. So we preach about things like David and 188 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:27.839 Bathsheba and we don't call it the affair that David and Bathsheba had, we 189 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:34.480 call it David's rape of Bathsheba. We look at these things within scripture, 190 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:42.240 we tease them apart, we pull out the theology behind it and how this 191 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:51.480 helps us understand abuse dynamics. We talk about and preach about sheep's and wolves 192 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:57.240 clothing. And so we established through what we preach that this is a safe 193 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.599 place. We established through what we preach that if you have been hurt, 194 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.839 you have a safe haven here, and we established through what we preach that 195 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:11.119 if you attend to abuse people here, your best move on, because this 196 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:17.359 church value safety not just as something that's there, but as a god given 197 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.799 responsibility. And because of that we're going to hold you accountable and we, 198 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.519 as a church body and as leadership, will do what we need to to 199 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:33.400 do that. We need to look at our theology, because our theology, 200 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:38.759 if we view it appropriately, in my mind, our theology compels us to 201 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:44.359 hold the perpetrator accountable doesn't just make it a good thing to hold them accountable, 202 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.920 it compels us to hold them accountable and we have to recognize that we 203 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.480 are going to hit on things that we have no clue what to deal with, 204 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:56.599 and that means we need to be open to consulting with outside subject matter 205 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.559 experts who get this, who will be able to help you understand how best 206 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:07.039 to hold a perpetrator accountable. Now that's the prevention side, but real time, 207 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:15.440 when you first find out that person a may have abused person B, 208 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:25.440 I can't emphasize enough the importance of getting outside counsel in order to effectively hold 209 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.839 that abuser accountable. You need some distance because, like we were talking about 210 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:38.119 before, the perpetrator has probably been grooming you, and if you've been the 211 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.720 subject of that grooming, you might have a hard time holding the person accountable 212 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:47.640 because you may not believe that they actually did it. Yep, because you 213 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:51.599 may think it was just a slip up, or if your doctrine is off, 214 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.839 you may consider it an affair rather than abuse, and holding a person 215 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.839 accountable to not have an affair is very different than holding in a person accountable 216 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:06.480 to not abuse. And so we have to recognize abuse for abuse and not 217 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:12.039 pass it off as an affair. We have to manage the conversation in in 218 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:18.880 these situations. I've had several churches described to me that once an accusation was 219 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:26.400 made the abuser, the perpetrator went on a public relations campaign. That's not 220 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:33.680 allowed and the church can help manage the conversation, not in the way that 221 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:38.079 has been done at times by don't gossip here, but as a way that 222 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:47.720 limits the alleged perpetrator's ability to raise up an army of supporters against the victim 223 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.359 and that limits that person's ability to continue grooming even in the midst of the 224 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:59.000 allegations. So we manage the conversation. We have to talk to the whole 225 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:03.160 congregation about it. There are a lot of factors that are going to impact 226 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.640 how we talk to the congregation about it, but it has to be something 227 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.400 that's done directly. It has to not be sugarcoated, because the congregation needs 228 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:18.640 to know what's going on. And then we need to make sure that we've 229 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:23.559 contacted law enforcement and child protection if that's called for, and even if we're 230 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.440 not positive that it's called for, we're going to air on the safe side 231 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:34.759 and contacting law enforcement and child protection helps us hold that person accountable. And 232 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:40.440 then, finally, we're going to limit access. This is easiest to do 233 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.599 if we have a good policy in place that says, when an allegation is 234 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:48.400 made, this is how we're going to respond, and then when you respond 235 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.359 that way, it's clear that you are just following the policy. A lot 236 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.319 of times churches are afraid that if they limit the person's access, it'll seem 237 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.880 like we're saying we believe they did it before we've had any chance to look 238 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.200 at it. Well, then put a policy in place that says you're going 239 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.240 to limit access and then when you do limit access, you just say we're 240 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.880 following the policy, we haven't had a chance to look into it. So 241 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:15.920 we know statistically the vast majority of reports are accurate, but we can't say 242 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.359 for sure on this specific one yet. Maybe we are looking into it and 243 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.759 until we've had a chance to look into it, our policy says they won't 244 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.960 be on property, or whatever you choose for that policy to to be. 245 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:34.960 And so limiting access and then after the fact, when you find out that 246 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:42.200 a person in the past may have offended or may have allegations against them. 247 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:49.640 Corey Jewel Jensen has written an incredible article, and you can find it online 248 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:56.799 open access, on how churches can minister two offenders, and part of that 249 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:04.160 is she talks at length about limited access agreements. Limited access agreements limit how 250 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.559 much, I at all, a known perpetrator can be on site and under 251 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:15.720 what conditions. The direct monitoring, not by a person that they're close to, 252 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:22.160 but by somebody who can be objective and somebody who's trained in abuse dynamics 253 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:29.839 to recognize different things, that that limited access agreement doesn't just cover what happens 254 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.799 at church, but it also covers what happens outside of church, and if 255 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:37.119 you violate our limited access agreement outside of Church then you need to find a 256 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:44.720 different place to attend that we hold that person accountable when it comes to repentance 257 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:53.799 and forgiveness. So often we have this desperate desire to extend repentance and forgiveness 258 00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:03.000 even or to extend forgiveness even when there isn't repentance. Um, an assaulter 259 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.599 whom uh you've interviewed on this program before, talks about that and talks about 260 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:15.200 the offenders with whom she has spoken that identified church as an easy target because 261 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.079 they want to believe the best. They want to forgive you. You can 262 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.559 cry a few tears and everything will be fine. That's not holding the offender 263 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:33.200 accountable. And so understanding what repentance and forgiveness are again, consult. Don't 264 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:38.839 just rely on yourself. Seek an outside professional who understands this. And then 265 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:45.720 for some, for some churches especially, it'll be very, very important to 266 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:55.640 understand. How does the confessional role of clergy relate to this? Some people 267 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:02.079 hold a belief that if I gained this information that the person is an abuser 268 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:11.960 during a confessional process, I can't let anyone else know and I can't really 269 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.240 hold them accountable if they say they don't want to talk about it outside of 270 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:21.160 the confessional. And if we understand that that actually is not the intent of 271 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.519 the confessional and if we understand that even if the law might give an out 272 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:33.559 for confessional privilege, that doesn't mean that necessarily, morally and ethically, there's 273 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:38.480 an out for confessional privilege. Victor VI from the Zero Abuse Project has written 274 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:48.079 a very powerful Um article looking at confessional privilege within the Lutheran church Um and 275 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:55.440 how that relates to reporting abuse, and argues very well, I think that 276 00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:00.440 confessional privilege does not remove a moral and ethical man to still report abuse that 277 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:08.160 you might hear of, and that's part of holding the perpetrator accountable. All 278 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:12.720 right, we'll wrap it up for this week. Um Pete will be back 279 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:18.279 next week and tell us the rest of the rest on grace and his experience 280 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:23.359 with spiritual abuse. Um Pete, thanks for being here. Um, thanks 281 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:29.000 for having me. It's been an honor. Well, Um, it has 282 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.640 a lot of good resources for those that are struggling right now and that are 283 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:41.640 in different stages just through their recovery, whether it's the spiritual sexual abuse combination 284 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:47.200 or just spiritual abuse in itself. Um, and are just abuse in general. 285 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.400 Um. And then, AH, Al Right, guys, this is 286 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:59.440 uh wrapping up. Follow us on our social media and find us on your 287 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.960 favorite so real media platform and, as always, if you need to reach 288 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.440 out to Rachel and recovery, go to Rachel and Recovery Dot Com. Thanks 289 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:08.000 for listening.