Episode Transcript
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Hi, this is Rachel and Recover. We're here with Rita and she's going
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to tell us a little bit about
herself and then she's going to answer some
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questions for us. Thanks Rachel.
I'm Rita Ferrell. I'm the director of
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Child First with Zero Abuse Project.
I've been in the field for nearly twenty
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three years. I started off as
a founding executive director of a child advocacy
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center in Indiana. I have been
you know, when I think about when
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I created and founded that child advocacy
center, it came from a really high
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profile case UM, a victim that
had endured eleven years of sexual abuse from
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her biological father, and back in
the day, they did not have the
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best practice and the approaches that we
have today, and this victim, Chassi,
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did not receive what she really should
have in the response to the allegations
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of maltreatment when she made an outcry. And I think for me personally,
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UM, dealing and seeing that case
really hit me. And unfortunately Chassie died
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by suicide after a three year process
to the court system and the judicial process
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and her father pleading out on a
lesser charge and not serving any jail time.
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UM and I didn't want any other
jurisdiction or team to have a similar
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case. And so it's a great
passion of mine when I formed that and
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moved into the national realm after a
decade of of being with that center,
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to be able to provide UM not
only processes, but training for frontline per
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professionals so that they can do the
very best investigation for children and allegations they
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receive. Okay, um, let's
get into some of the questions. So
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how did you get into investigating abuse? It was really when I started the
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Child Advocacy Center and I really got
involved in learning all of the roles on
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what we call a multidisciplinary team.
That multidisciplinary team and Child Advocacy Center movement
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back in nineteen eight five really um
evolved to best practice of what we do
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today, and that multidisciplinary team includes
the prosecutors, law enforcement, child protection,
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UM case workers, medical and mental
health professionals, and forensic interviewers.
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And that's really where I got involved. As the director of the ci a
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C, I was also the forensic
interviewer and that's been a great passion of
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mine for twenty three years. So
with my role here at Zero Abuse Project,
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I still conduct forensic interviews. I'm
part of two multidisciplinary teams here in
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Indiana and still do the work that
I train on. So it's a huge
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passion of mine. Uh. What
does your role in director UH? Director
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of Children First look like? We
at Child First. It's a program of
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zero Abuse project. It's the most
widely used forensic interviewing protocol in the nation.
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We have twenty one states in two
countries that utilize the model. I'm
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a co author on the model,
and it's a flexible model UM to listen
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to children when there's an allegation of
mal treatment of any kind. UM.
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So I manage our national and international
Child First program. I also develop advanced
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train meanings for forensic interviewers and multidisciplinary
team members, and UM write a lot
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of pure reviewed publications for the field. Okay, UM, what are some
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common misconceptions people don't realize with abuse? Well, I think the biggest one
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is that it happens. We still
have a culture where folks don't want to
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talk about child abuse, and it's
really important that we discuss it. We
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have a culture that allows individuals to
understand it's okay to talk about abuse,
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about prevention and about healing for those
who are affected by maltreatment. And so
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I think one of the misconceptions is
society doesn't believe it really happens, and
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it happens a lot. And then
I think the other misconception is that kids,
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you know, don't tell the truth, or they're making it up,
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or you know, no one really
wants to believe that someone can harm a
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child. And if they do believe
that, they think it's someone that's lurking
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in the bushes, um, that's
going to abduct a child, And they
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don't really understand that more than of
children are familiar with their offender and that
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it happens oftentimes by someone that the
child knows, loves, and trust.
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So education is key. What ways
would you like to see culture change um
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HM when dealing with abuse? UH, Having our society understand that one it,
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it does happen, UM and to
how they can respond to it.
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UM. I think that allowing UM
folks to know it's okay to talk about
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it, then we can educate our
communities and our children. Our children,
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I kind of see it threefold.
We should educate our children how to keep
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their bodies safe, that it's okay
to tell if something is not okay or
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if they ever feel not okay,
And then we also have to train our
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communities to understand and our mandated reporters
and our first responders that one child abuse
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does happen, and here are the
signs and symptoms, here's what to do
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if a child outcries and discloses to
you. I think that we need to
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create that prevention and then once we
educate on on child maltreatment, then teaching
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people how to respond to it so
that they can recognize, report, and
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respond appropriately for that child. In
what ways should we change procedures when dealing
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with abuse, whether it's in the
church or in an organization? Rachel I
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love that question because so often in
organizations, whether they're faith based or another
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UM youth serving organization, they often
times like to hide UM when something comes
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to the forefront, and we need
organizations to understand how they should respond.
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We have a training called first.
It's an acronym UM, but first stands
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for find a safe location, identify
your concerns, build rapports, seek details
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and tell the hotline or or tell
your multidisciplinary team. And you know,
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folks today think that if they don't
say anything and to just go away.
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Well, the one thing we know
is that child maltreatment isn't going to end
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without intervention. So we need organizations, faith based organizations, youth serving organizations
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to understand they don't have to gather
all the evidence or or have all the
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answers. The law is really clear
as far as when they suspect have reasonable
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uh suspicion that a child's being maltreated, that they report. UM. The
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reality is most people don't report,
and that's unfortunate. We know that children
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tell UM usually a trusted adult.
That's awesome, right, that we could
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do in our preventative education programs.
But when a child tells the adult,
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should UM report immediately and not question
anything. I look at it this way,
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Uh, we need to start thinking
about when a child outcries, everything
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that happens in that entire process.
UM. I think a forensic interviewing.
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For instance, a forensic interview is
something that usually happens fairly soon after a
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child outcries, and then that forensic
interview is just one piece of an entire
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investigation, and our investigators need to
have an eye towards corroborating and refuting the
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statements all the way through the judicial
process. If it gets there, we
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need to have a holistic approach and
follow best practices in our work. So,
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Um, that's my hope in in
the procedures that we would use is
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we always do what's in the best
interest of the child. Okay, Um,
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kind of tell us a little bit
about outside of the interview, what
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other procedures go on. That's a
great question. Um. You know,
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when a child makes an outcry,
there's usually a report that's made and and
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that first training I was talking about
teaches those to receive that outcry so that
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the information that's given in the report
is not only accurate, but it's complete
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and then determine nations are made by
law enforcement and CPS or child protection on
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whether that's going to move forward or
not move forward. Uh, their goal
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is to make those determinations. But
if it's determined that it's going to move
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forward, then that forensic interview would
happen. That forensic interview happens at a
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child advocacy center. That's best practice. They should be interviewed by a specially
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trained interviewer and they should have their
multidisciplinary team prosecutors, law enforcement, and
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CPS observing the interview that I would
be doing with the child in a child
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friendly environment. Then after that interview, UM, we have pre meetings and
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post meetings, but then an investigation
follows where they should corroborate, talk with
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collateral witnesses and do an investigation that
then is taken to UM the prosecutor,
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and then the prosecutor then moves forward
UM in in the judicial processes. Our
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goal is for justice right in the
in the judicial process. But UM,
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you know, we want to have
successful outcomes in the judicial process, and
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it really does take that holistic approach. So UM, I think of our
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our best practice, all of the
best practice we do in our child abuse
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investigations now is immersed in and research
evidence based practices, and we need to
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have consistency in our response and our
investigations. UM. And you mentioned a
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child child environment, a safe child
environment. What do you mean by that?
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Oh? I love to talk about
child advocacy centers. Child advocacy centers.
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There's UM over nine hundred now nation
nationwide. The National Children's Alliances,
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the National or UM, the National
Children's Alliances, the national organization that oversees
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UH child advocacy centers, and they
are amazing centers that provide UM a wonderful
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environment, child friendly, age appropriate
UM for trained interviewers and investigators to talk
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with children. I'm really happy to
uh work very closely with c A c
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S. That's their acronym for child
advocacy centers, and they are best practice
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in the field of child abuse investigations, as is working with that multidisciplinary team.
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I guess my question to be,
what would that room look like.
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It doesn't have a lot in it. It's a it's a warm, inviting
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room. When I listen to younger
children, I might be sitting on the
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floor. I have a flip chart
piece of paper in there. I utilize
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interviewing aids such as diagrams and dolls
sometimes UM if the child needs them.
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Uh. There's not a lot of
distractions, but we are always, like
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I said, doing what's in the
best interests of the child. So if
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the child needs a certain weighted blanket
or a fidget, there's not toys or
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anything like that in the forensic interview
room. I look at the room as
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being child friendly, not UM a
cold. I think in comparison of you
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know, maybe a police department or
CPS office, those aren't necessarily you know,
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very child friendly environments, right,
they sometimes can be intimidating. Who
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goes to the police department? Well, the bad people go to the police
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department, and that for years is
where you know children used to go to.
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So it's nice to have these centers
now that provide a lot not only
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the child friendly room, but UM
therapeutic and clinical services, medical services,
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anything really the child and family would
need from our our team are available at
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child Advocacy centers, so they're wonderful. I I also want to talk a
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little bit about UM the forensic interview. It's a neutral information gathering process with
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that child. So for me,
as a forensic interview, I go into
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that with each child with my model
that's flexible following best practice, but I
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also am aged develop mentally appropriate with
the child, so that setting can change.
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My room may look a little different
for a four year old or a
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five year old then if I'm interviewing
a seventeen year old, right, So
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we always want to have the environment
match the child's age and developmental abilities.
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But it's usually a very comfortable room
with comfy couches or chairs, and I
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do it's being recorded video and audio
recorded and again observed by my team,
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and all of that's explained in our
process that we use with the child called
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child first, and we explain that
to the child as we go in an
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appropriate manner. UM, would you
ever say, like I know, my
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my great uncle Jerry, he used
to do some he was worked in the
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police department and when he would find
all these reports, he would use dolls
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to kind of help with, UM, the kids to identify parts and things.
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UM. Is there any of that
or is that more with you know,
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play therapy and things and counseling.
Yeah. It. They are utilized
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in the forensic interview process, but
in a very purposeful way. So UM
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two interviewing aids that I could use
our anatomical diagrams and then anatomical dolls.
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But like I said, they're very
purposeful in how I use them. I
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can use diagrams UM to come to
or arrive to a common language of what
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the child calls body parts. And
I can also use the diagrams to clarify
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any terminology that the child uses in
their disclosure. I would use dolls,
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anatomical dolls post disclosure only UM as
a demonstration aid to have the child show
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me what they have already disclosed in
the interview. So yes, on your
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question of who I use those kinds
of interviewing aids, Um, But it
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always in a very purposeful manner that
I can legally defend. And I say
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that really carefully, Rachel, because
sometimes folks use diagrams and dolls incorrectly in
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the field. And we have training
at Zero Abuse Project for frontline professionals if
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they want to learn more of how
to use those two interviewing aids properly.
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Okay, And Um, I guess
at one point, Um, did did
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the children get a guardian at Ledum? Um? That usually happens after Well,
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it could happen before, I guess, in in more of a family
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civil kind of manner. But Um, that happens after they leave the child
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advocacy center, after they've met with
me. Um, And it's outside the
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scope of my role. Um,
But that would happen later on in the
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judicial process. What are are things
you notice in false reporting and knowing that
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it's a really small percentage, but
it does happen, sure, I think,
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Um, when we talk about that, we need to talk about how
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children outcry and make disclosures, you
know, kind of a misconception there is
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that children immediately tell UM. You
know. I use the example of children
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falling off of a bicycle and scratching
their knee and running to a caregiver for
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first aid, cream and a band
aid. That is not how the disclosure
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process happens. Uh, It's not
an event. It's a process. So
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children tell for all different reasons,
under all different circumstances. UM. And
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false allegations, or I should say
false reporting. UM. Very small percentage
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of children lie, by the research, and a small percentage are um,
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you know, delicious kinds of false
reports. Like you said, I think
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it goes to speak though again about
kind of the culture of society and people
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not believing things that children say,
are not listening to children. UM.
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There's a lot of misconceptions or individual
bias about a particular case or family or
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whomever. And we need to always
one not make assumptions. We need to
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respond to any allegation of maltreatment UM
in a consistent manner. And what I
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mean by that is, if someone
discloses in the northern parts of our country,
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UM, then and and another child
discloses in the southernmost part of our
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our country or state, they need
to have this same consistent response, and
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that is going back to best practice, right UM, and and how we
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handle an outcry. Everything that that
child says UM should be handled very delicately
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and and investigated. So I just
think people's um misconceptions, assumptions, bias
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can cloud UM their neutrality. And
I want everyone to always go in to
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each disclosure from a child neutral and
objective and give it the very best investigative
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process that that they can for each
child. The other piece too, in
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my specific work as a forensic interviewer, when a child says something that is
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inconsistent or a discrepancy, I just
don't leave that hanging there, right,
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I clear it up. I don't
um leave anything without asking about it,
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exploring it to its very fullest when
a child saying something to me. So
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yes, I guess children communicate much
differently than adults do well. And and
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that's another great point to make Rachel, is people need to understand that how
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children say things is different than adults. There's no one right way to to
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interview a child. UH. In
a forensic interview, that's a very unique
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interaction that a trained person has.
And UM, I think for those in
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our communities that are selected by the
child. When a child makes an outcry,
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is they need to ask questions in
a way that is age and developmentally
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appropriate. Gather the information and accurately
report exactly word for word what the child
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says, and don't let any of
their personal Like I said, personal bias
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or feelings come into it. They
should be objective and neutral. Okay,
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UM, what are some really good
tips when invest getting abuse case work with
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a team? UM? We should
no longer be having rogue investigations happening.
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And what I mean by that is
UM doing things within their own agency or
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on their own We should immediately after
an outcry from a child gather our multidisciplinary
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team together and work the case together, not individually. I think another really
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great tip is to be trained UM
to know UM. For instance, UM,
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if you're going to be conducting a
forensic interview, that it should be
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done at a child advocacy center.
You should have forensic interviewing training that is
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nationally recognized and approved by the National
Children's Alliance. That we should have ongoing
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ongoing training as well. I think
when UM we think about good tips corroborating,
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we should never have any he said, she said cases and child abuse
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cases anymore, where you put the
entire burden on the child's statement and shoulders,
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we should always keep an eye towards
corroborating and or refuting what that child
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says. So UM again, I
think looking and taking a holistic approach,
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being trained, responding consistently, and
understanding how children delay disclosure. White children
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may um, White children may disclose
at times where they don't look very convinsing,
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right. UM. We need to
understand the dynamics of maltreatment and barriers
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for children to disclose, fears,
threats, um, those kinds of things.
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So education is key UM when investigating
these cases. They're the hardest cases,
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really UM, and they're tough cases. And UM, I think understanding
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how to do things properly um and
not taking shortcuts or not doing things individually.
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You know, it's really important.
I think one of the problems,
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kind of going back to an earlier
UM pieces, I don't think the general
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society understands what child protection case workers
do in their role, uh and what
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law enforcement does in their role.
And I think there's some big misconceptions um,
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surrounding their roles and we need to
remove those and educate folks. They
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are the two agencies mandated by law
to co investigate any allegation of maltreatment.
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Uh. I admire both of those
positions very very much. UM. When
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you say a team, what what
type of positions would you want to have
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on this team? Yeah? So, like I just mentioned, the law
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enforcement agencies and child protection are the
two agencies that have to co co investigate.
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So those are a given. I
think it's really important on that team,
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and we call it multidisciplinary team UM
to have a prosecutorial lead team.
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So your prosecutor, law enforcement and
CPS are those core investigative team members,
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and then they're working with the child
advocacy center staff that at that child advocacy
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center, you'll have the forensic interviewers
like myself, You'll have child advocates,
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you'll have medical and mental health professionals. Right, all of those team members
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coming together from the onset of an
outcry, working together through all of the
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pieces, um that the child and
family needs. So those team members are
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really critical rather what they used to
do years ago, Rachel, years ago,
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before the child advocacy centers and multidisciplinary
teams were created by Bud Kramer in
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nineteen eighty five, and just to
give you a little history here, Bud
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Kramer UM developed the first child advocacy
center it still sits in Huntsville, Alabama,
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the National Children's UM Children's Advocacy Center, and the first multidisciplinary team.
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And why he did that back in
nineteen eighty five. He was a prosecutor
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back in the day, and he
couldn't win these cases in court. And
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the reason he couldn't win these cases
in court was because UM multiple individuals were
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interviewing the child. It became like
he said, she said, people pointing
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fingers, people not believing, not
doing an investigative, you know, all
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those things that in nineteen five,
what they really defined was a way to
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not have we don't want multiple people
interviewing children or agencies doing their own thing
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on their own because we don't have
successful outcomes. So with this team we're
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talking about when a child outcries,
this team gathers and works together from the
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onset of a disclosure from the child, and it minimizes the number of people
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that interview that child. So there's
just one forensic interviewer interviewing that child UM
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and and after that the team is
then like I said, it's just one
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piece of an entire investigation. They're
moving forward then, UM, so that
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we hopefully can have better success in
the courtroom. Okay, UM, what
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are things you wish people understood better
about abuse cases? That they're tough cases
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and that it does happen. Like
I mentioned, I think general society doesn't
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want to believe about child abuse um
and that it occurs. They want to
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unfortunately think that it's in some sort
of particular socioeconomic level or UM, in
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one neighborhood and not the other.
Child abuse cuts across all boundaries UM,
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and all cultures and UM, all
demographics, and that piece is really important
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and I wish people understood that more
um and and just think about it.
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You know, what we hear in
the news or politics or whatever is usually
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those high profile cases that might come
into the media. UM. But the
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reality is it's happening every day,
all the time. And I wish more
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people would talk about it, uh
and children would know it's okay to tell
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and there wasn't this you know kind
of UM. We'll keep it within the
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family. UM, we won't talk
about it. We won't talk about it
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in public. Those those things need
to stop. When I came into the
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field, you know, twenty three
years ago, I did a lot of
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educating on you know, removing those
kinds of myths, right Um, And
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here twenty three years later, we're
still removing and still teaching, UM,
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removing those myths because they still exist. So I want, I want people
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to better understand that child abuse does
happen, and we need to be the
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voice for children most definitely. UM. What is the best advice you could
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give someone who's a survivor of abuse? Mm hmmm. UM. You know,
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when I think about all the survivors
I I've had a wonderful opportunity in
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my career to meet and talk to
UM is share UM. You know,
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we need to have a society that
that supports there restorative measures and healing providing.
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UM. You know, it's not
as if they in trauma and form
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practice and having programs that support survivors
in that healing process. It needs to
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be again holistic in our approach.
So it's not as if we have a
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case and it goes UM through the
judicial process and then it's done. UM.
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You know, they need our assistance, UM all the way through that
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healing process. And it should be
okay to talk about Okay, UM,
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is there anything, uh you'd like
to add on that note as far as
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what we need to do or something
else. I mean, I just I
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feel like personally in those in the
field and those that work, I always
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want to be UM doing whatever I
can to support so that the process,
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so that the survivors of abuse will
know that we were their voice and and
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and we did the very best we
can or could in their individual cases.
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Right. I feel I know this
is a question you're going to ask in
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a minute about kind of impacting my
faith. UM. I do personally believe
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my reason for being on this planet
is the work that I do. UM,
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listening to children, training frontline professionals. UM. I think we need
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to protect children at all costs,
be their voice so that we can have
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a world where no child ever has
to endure the things that survivors have been
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through. UM. So I UM
applaud um all those who have been affected
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by child maltreatment. My hope is
to end child abuse. UM. That's
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that's my my goal. UM.
What are some best practices and preventing abuse?
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Education? UM, Education, education, education. We have to educate
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children to know their body belongs to
them. It's okay to tell. When
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we look at the re search and
we see that, UM, most children
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do not tell unfortunately, UM.
And we know a lot of children will
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never tell. Some will not tell
until adulthood. UM. And that's when
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you know, I think about the
survivors. It's it's okay to to share
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their story. UM. You know, it's the only way that we can
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help others, right, So I
really like that's why I admire UM,
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those who come forward, UM that
are able to do that, because UM,
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if if we don't teach children to
tell, we can't protect them.
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You know, we we can't protect
them from the abuse that they're enduring.
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Like I said, UH, abuse
isn't going to end without intervention, and
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so education is really key. Okay, UM. What do you do for
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self care? Personally? I love
to uh kayak and I love to paint.
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UM. So those are my two
self care pieces I think. UM.
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00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.400
I also debrief. I think that's
really healthy, UM having a support
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network and and another advice i'd give
survivors of abuses having those that support net
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to be able to go to to
talk to UM. And I think that's
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really important, UM for everyone that
not only UM works in this field,
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UM, but those helping others to
be that support NET. Okay, and
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last question, how has this impacted
your faith greatly? Greatly? UM?
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For me, it's it's sad too
UM know that people harm children, UM,
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but knowing that there's something I can
do about it and that I feel
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is part of UM my responsibility.
UM. It has strengthened my faith when
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I see the beautiful things UM that
we can do in our work. UM
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definitely has grown my spiritual faith.
Is there anything else you'd like to add
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that I didn't ask mm hmm,
just that we're all morally responsible to protect
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children and would love everyone to know
that, not just for this podcast,
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but they can reach out to me
UM UM at our website at Zero Abuse
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Project dot org. UM. I
do a lot of technical assistance and consultation
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on cases. If someone doesn't know
where to go or what to do.
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UM. That's what I'm here for
us to to make those connections. So
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happy to help it anyway I can. Okay, all right, thanks for
356
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coming on our show, Rinda and
uh As always, thanks guys for listening.
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You can always find us on your
favorite podcasts platform or social media platform,
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00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:37.480
and always, if you have any
questions, reach out to Rachel and
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00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.360
recovery dot com. Thanks, thanks
Rachel,
