Episode Transcript
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Hey guys, we're back with Pete
Singer with the rest of his journey with
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grace and his experience with spiritual abuse. Have we touched on legalism? Because
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okay, legalism inside the church,
or would you say that's covered under fund
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elementalism? Um? I think fundamentalists
are are who are most notably identified as
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legalistic, but I think that there's
legalism on on all sides, Um,
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and it might just take a different
a different version and a different appearance.
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And so even if a church is
not overtly legalistic, there might be subtle
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legalism, there might be subtle demands, subtle requirements that we don't necessarily always
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recognize or see as legalism. Um, and I think that really so.
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This is key to how we try
and approach things with grace. You can
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address abuse by trying to make sure
you've checked off all the boxes, or
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you can try and address it by
having this be about our culture and our
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identity and who we are, whether
we're talking about salvation, whether we're talking
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about Um how to live out godly
life. When it is about checking the
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right boxes, we're at risk of
legalism. But when it becomes about our
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identity and who we are in Christ
that begins to form a safeguard against that
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legalism and that's so important because,
Al Right, so in the church that
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I grew up in, we had
legalism, for example, around the idea
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of going to see movies. You
could not go see movies. But culture
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changes and our legalism struggles to keep
up with culture. When I was a
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kid many, many years ago,
we got this new technology, the VCR,
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and our legalism of not going to
see a movie had not caught up
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with the new technology yet. And
so now, as a kid, I
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remember thinking why is it okay to
go see a movie, or why is
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it not okay to go see a
movie? But why is it okay to
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rent a video? Our legalism hadn't
caught up to the culture. When it's
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about checking the box, the box
that needs to be checked is going to
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change, but when it's about who
we are, when it's about our very
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culture, then we have a framework
to address those changes real time for real
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reasons rather than just because that's the
rule. Yeah, I mean, that's
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I mean, and I guess that
goes also with own independence, with cheap
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grace as well, because you're trying
to find that balance and the only way
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to find that balances with your identity
in Christ. Um, what is one
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thing that you pray for that you
want the most for churches? I think
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what I want to see in churches
is a recognition that this is about that
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identity in Christ that we were just
talking about, that it's not a side
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issue, but that it is absolutely
central to who Jesus is. It is
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central to all that Jesus taught.
It is central to teachings of scripture from
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Genesis all the way through revelation.
I want to see churches no that there.
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I was talking with a pastor who
was doing a study, or not
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a pastor but a professor, who
was doing a study on trauma informed principles
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in Sunday school programs and what he
noted was that there were a number of
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churches who had never been told what
Sam's the six principles of trauma informed at
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desire, who had never been told
Um, what Sam says for ours are
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of trauma informed practice, who had
never been told about the sanctuary model of
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trauma informed practice or anything about trauma
informed practice. But when he went to
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look at their Sunday school ministries,
every single one of them was being hit
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already. Why? Because it was
about who they were and there was an
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education component to it, but it
was already who they were and so they
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were already doing it. And what
I would love to see in the church
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it's for there to be a recognition
that this is who we are and for
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it to just be what we do
because it's who we are. Yeah,
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that's that's very important, because I
think a lot of people forget that our
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identity is in Christ and not anything
else. And when we forget that,
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we we are very much at risk
of finding our identity and something else,
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and that something else might be power, that something else might be reputation,
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and now these things start taking priority. I love how Paul writes about Jesus
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and he says in essence, Jesus
was in the very form of God and
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because he knew that he didn't have
to grasp equality with God, because he
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knew who he was in Christ,
or not who he was in Christ,
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but because he knew who he was
as Christ, he could set aside all
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that and make himself of no reputation
and he could humble himself to the very
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point of death on a cross.
But that humility goes all the way back
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to Jesus, knowing who he was. And if we lose sight of WHO
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WE ARE, we lose sight of
the ability to have that humility, and
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we lose sight of the ability to
have that humility, we are at risk
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of finding our ident to the and
other things, and those things can lead
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us down a path that hurts and
harms most definitely. Um what advice would
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you give to two ministers today that
are dealing with spiritual abuse personally or dealing
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it or or trying to deal with
it to help their congregation? I would
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say the biggest piece of advice I
could give is don't do it alone.
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It will be too much, Um, the weight. If you take this
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on and you make it a priority, you are going to hear horrific things
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and if you don't know yet what
you're in for, you will be shocked.
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You will hear stories that you cannot
believe are truth. You, um
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M, you can't do this alone. That is number one, and scripture
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it's full of leaders who recognized this, and full not just of examples of
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leaders who recognized they couldn't do it
alone, but leaders who recognized they couldn't
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do it alone but by the time
they recognized it. We're at the point
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of calling out to God, as
Moses called out to God, as Elijah
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called out to God and said,
I can't do this anymore, please kill
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me. So we're not just talking
about a little bit of Burnout, we're
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talking about Moses and Elijah doing it
alone and ending up suicidal. Moses and
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Elijah are kind of big figures in
the faith and if it can happen to
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Moses and Elijah, it can happen
to you. And for both Moses and
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Elijah, when they called out to
God and said I can't do this anymore,
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please kill me, God's response was, I'm gonna give you some people
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to walk this path with you so
that you're not alone. So don't wait
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till you're at that point. Surround
yourself with people who understand this issue.
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Surround yourself with people who understand you
and can uplift and support you. I
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would also say keep returning to who
you are, keep returning to who Jesus
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is, because if it again starts
to become about the checklist, you're going
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to be at risk. So keep
returning to who you are and to WHO
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Jesus is. And then the other
thing that I would say is to find
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hope and to rely on hope.
When I talk about hope, I am
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not talking about some pie in the
sky type of hope. All right,
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so, like I live in Minnesota, Um, I really hope that we
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don't have a cold winter this year. I don't think our four asked for
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the winter just changed. I have
a feeling that even though I hope we
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don't have a cold winter, we're
gonna have a cold winter. That's not
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the type of hope that I'm talking
about. That's wishful thinking. So I'm
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talking about a grounded hope. A
grounded hope that first rests in two factors.
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One is way power, the ability
to see the goal and believe you
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can make it. The ability to
see the goal and believe that you can
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make it is reliant very much on
understanding who Jesus is and understanding who we
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are in Christ. That helps inform
and helps us to see what the goal
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is, because the goal is that
we're his bride and that we are acting
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as such. So there's way power, the ability to see the goal and
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believe you can make it, and
then there's willpower, the ability to stay
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on the path towards the goal,
even when that path is hard, because
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the path will be hard. And
as you embark on this pathway, as
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you embark on this journey of hope, I would encourage that pastor to to
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draw on that pastor or that leader, because it doesn't just have to be
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a pastor anyone who is in this
work to draw on four key beliefs of
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hope, H one. It actually
can be better. Victor VII has written
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this work and it blows me away
every time I think of it. It's
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called unto the third generation and it's
a call to end child abuse, not
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not just reduced child abuse, but
end child abuse. He's laid out a
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year plan, which is why it's
called unto the third generation. It's very
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long term, but he believes that
the future can and will be better and
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the next step is to realized not
just that the future can and will be
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better, but that I have a
role in making it better. It's not
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just I hope the leadership of my
denomination does something, it's what am I
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going to do to make it better? We've seen too many times that if
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we wait for the leadership of our
denomination, that's not going to happen.
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We have seen some instances where the
leadership of the denomination actually does do incredibly
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good work, but so frequently we
have seen waiting for somebody else. Even
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the leadership of our denomination or the
leadership of an individual church is not going
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to get us there. So what
can I do? What's my role in
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making it better? The third belief
of hope is that there are many paths
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to the goal. When I got
done with high school and I entered College,
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I knew that God's calling on my
life was two address to help people
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who had been hurt and to address
some of the causes of hurt and and
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so, knowing that that was God's
call on my life, I entered a
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premed Pre med program and my Sophomore
Year of college, when I came back
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as an elementary education major, that
was still the call that God had in
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my life, because my goal hadn't
changed, but I was on a different
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path to the same goal. I
then took a few years off of college
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as my wife finished her degree,
and then I returned for my degree as
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a psychology major. The goal was
still the same, even though my path
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had changed. And then, after
I completed my Undergrad work in psychology,
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I completed my masters in social work. The Path might change, but that
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doesn't mean that the goal has changed. And then the final belief of hope,
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which seems almost counterintuitive to hope,
is that every single one of those
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paths is going to be filled with
obstacles. There will be no easy path,
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there will be no cakewalk, and
that's important to recognize because if we
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don't recognize that when we encounter obstacles
on the path, if we were thinking,
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well, if I'm on the right
path, it'll be easy, then
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we leave the path and we can
lose sight of the goal. So those
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are the four key beliefs. I
would really encourage people who are in this
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work, whether you're a pastor whether
you're not a pastor, to consider this
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work, to consider those beliefs as
you move forward and hope. Um,
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how, as Christians, do we
rebuild trust with those that have been abused
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by the Church? Um. I've
actually really been thinking a lot about this,
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Um, and what I've really come
to believe is that our goal is
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not to rebuild trust. Our goal
is to act in a way that is
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worthy of trust, just because that's
what we're called to do just because that's
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what we need to do and I'm
not doing it so that I can get
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you to trust me. I'm just
doing it because that's what I'm called to
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do and the onus is on me
to act in a way that is worthy
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of trust. The onus is not
on you to trust me. And so
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what does it look like? Part
of it, I can look in scripture
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for what it looks like. I
look and I see Joseph's brothers. I
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see Joseph's brothers come before their father
and do you know what? They never
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told him. Joseph was killed by
an animal. All they did was set
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down the cloak in front of him
and then kept their mouth shut. That's
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not trustworthy. It's not trustworthy to
let people see a certain piece of information
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and then keep your mouth shut as
they misinterpreted. That's not trust worthy.
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It is not trust worthy to share
information in a way that nobody can understand.
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Whether it's because we've used such academic
language that it's incomprehensible, whether it's
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that we've used such spiritual language that
it's incomprehensible, or whether it's because we
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present the information in a language that
the people who are supposed to be reading
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it don't understand, we might as
well be doing and I've seen signs like
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this, signs in English saying that
if you need a Spanish interpreter, call
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this number. I've seen visual signs
that say if you can't see and need
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a brail menu, let us know. I mean, this is not this
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is not trustworthy. We are seriously, we are commune nicating in a way
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that people will not understand and that
we know they won't and this is not
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trust worthy and it's also when.
When do we communicate? Do we communicate
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only after we've been given the notice
from the attorney? Do we communicate only
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after we learn that the person's posted
it on social media? Do we communicate
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only after we've learned that Christianity today
is going to run a story? Or
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do we communicate when people need to
know the information? H Mh. Do
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we act in a way that is
trust worthy because we also show trust?
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Do we act in a way that
is trust worthy because we don't misused scripture
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for our own benefit? And I
talked to my kids. Are All grown
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now, which is really weird,
but but I talked with my kids frequently
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about this. It's not just what
you try to do, it's what you
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try not to do. It's not
just that you don't try and misuse scripture,
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it's that you try not to misuse
scripture. It is a conscious effort,
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because it is so easy to fall
into a trap unknowingly and too slowly
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slide into it and then you don't
realize it until somebody calls you on it
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and you're like, oh my Gosh, how did I get here, or
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at that point you're so entrenched in
it that now you have to defend yourself
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from misusing the scripture. And so
acting in a trustworthy manner requires conscious effort
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to not be untrustworthy. So those
are just some of my thoughts on trustworthiness.
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That it's not about rebuilding trust.
I hope that people eventually can trust
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the church more, but whether they
do or not, I need to be
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acting in a way that is worthy
of trust. M I think we could
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all learn from that, because that
can be challenging to do and I think
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it takes a lot of integrity,
which I think a lot of us struggle
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with, and knowing wisdom, with
trustworthy trustworthiness, which is can be challenging
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at times. M All right,
guys, thanks for listening. Uh Pete's
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gonna be back next week. I
always follow this on your favorite platform for
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social media or on podcast, and
if you have any questions, I want
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to reach out or learn more about
Rachel and recovery, always go to Rachel
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and recovery Dot Com. Thanks for
listening. Tune in next week at ten
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am on Thursday
