Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey guys, we're back with Pete
Singer with the rest of his journey with
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grace and his experience with spiritual abuse. And it's not always easy to do
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either. No, you're absolutely right. It's challenging, it's hard. Um.
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Is Trauma and form formed churches growing, or is this? Is there
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still a lot of resistance? Yes, it is growing and there's still a
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lot of resistance. Um. I'm
sorry, Goad, I mean I've seen
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I've seen them churches, you know, they take and they acknowledge it and
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they're trying to work and, you
know, trying to implement something for trauma,
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but it's very messy. Um.
And then others are just like it
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doesn't even exist. Yeah, Um, I tell you. Um. Last
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November I was presenting at a conference, Um, and it was it was
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a forensic sciences conference. Um.
That was focused on child abuse and intimate
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partner violence. Um, and the
first two days of the conference were focused
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on professionals in in this work,
so law enforcement, child protection workers,
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victim advocates, forensic interviewers, medical
personnel and such. That was the first
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two days, and so I did
a presentation Um during those first two days
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to those professionals. But then day
three of this conference, which I think
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is just um amazing. Day Three
of this conference they invite faith leaders in
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and Um, so the faith leaders
come in and I gave a couple of
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presentations on on day three and one
of those presentations was taking samps's six principles
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of trauma informed practice, safety,
trustworthiness and transparency, pure support, collaboration
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and mutuality, empowerment, voice and
choice and humility in the face of historical,
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cultural and gender factors that are just
absolutely inseparable from trauma. My presentation
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was saying these six principles are actually
scriptural and this is what it would look
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like if would actually take them and
apply them in our churches. I got
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done with that presentation and somebody came
up to me and she said I grew
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up in the church and because of
all that I experienced growing up in the
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church, as soon as I was
an adult I left the church. She
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was in her mid forties and she
said to me, I think this is
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the first time I've actually met a
real Christian, and she said that not
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because of anything about me, but
because of the power of recognizing that those
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ideals actually are her how the church
is supposed to operate. They are.
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It comes back again to our identity, and so I think there are people
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outside the church, who may have
left the church or who may have never
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been in the church that, when
they see that actually show up in the
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church, are like, oh well, maybe, I think, but that
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is not why we do it.
I also think it I am more frequently
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getting a call from a leader within
a church, and I would say that
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I've noticed this even within the year
and a half that I've been at grace.
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Very often when we get a call
Um, often when we get a
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call from a church saying, yeah, this happened, we just got an
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allegation or we just found out there's
a known sex offender or we just had
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a minor on minor situation or we
just found out about intimate partner violence or
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in occurring in our church. What
do we do? It is often we
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want to know what to do because
we don't want to look bad. We
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want to know what to do because
we've seen how some churches have shown up
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looking really bad in the media lately
and we don't want to be that church.
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But I have seen an increasing number
of churches in the last year and
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a half call up, not saying
help us manage our image, but instead
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saying people have been hurt and we
think we've messed up how we've been caring
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for them and we don't want to
hurt them anymore. Can you help us
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understand this so we don't hurt them
anymore? Can you help us understand this
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so that we can actually protect people? Can you help us understand this so
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that we can truly reflect the heart
of God? And I would say even
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in the year and a half that
I've been at grace, I've seen a
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noticeable uptick in the number of churches
that are calling saying, help us do
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this because it's right, rather than
help us do this so that we don't
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look bad, and to me that
is growth in churches who accept this idea
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of we need to understand trauma and
respond. Well, on the flip side,
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we still do have churches call up
and say, help us manage how
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we look, help us to not
look bad, and we still do have
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people that say, well, because
grace is speaking up for those who don't
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have power, grace must therefore um
be endorsing just a Social Gospel and no
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real care about the Gospel or Um
Grace is clearly founded on critical theory,
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or grace is based on Neo Marxism. Um. And so there are still
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people that don't understand. No,
actually, we're trying to base this on
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who Jesus is and and who we
are in Christ. Um. I haven't
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actually checked to see how marks fits
into that Um, but uh yeah,
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so I think that, yes,
there is growth. I think that there
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is still resistance, who, from
people who have not under stood that this
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isn't about anything other than Jesus cared
for people who were hurt. Jesus protected
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people who were hurt. Jesus spoke
out against those in authority who are abusing
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their power and he spoke out mostly
against religious leaders when it came to that.
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Yes, and and and. So
there are people who have not reached
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that understanding yet and there are people
who have. So I would say,
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yes, there is growth of this
in the church. I mean I think
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even just of a of a recent
church where we did an investigation and we
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encourage when we do an investigation with
the church, we encourage the church to
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collaborate with survivors of the abuse to
determine what to do with publicizing the report.
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Um, there are some situations where
where victims truly and survivors truly do
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not want that report public or,
if it is going to be public,
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I want you to Um, take
out any reference of me whatsoever, because
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I'm really concerned that people are going
to figure out who I am. And
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so we encourage churches work with the
survivors. If you know who the survivors
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are, work with them. If
you don't know who the survivors are,
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we will help convey some of their
wishes is to publicizing this report. But
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we encourage publicizing the report consistent with
survivor wishes. Um. But even just
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as an example, there is a
church who they were very public allegations about
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abuse that had occurred decades ago,
and we put in the h while it
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was not a slam dunk, the
allegations do appear credible, Um and the
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church, and we also said in
the years since that we see that you
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as a church have taken some very
significant steps, very significant steps towards increasing
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safety and taking better care of survivors. So the church put checked with survivors,
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put the report up on their website
for everybody to see and also made
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it very clear. The report says
that these allegations are credible, went on
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to describe how the allegations actually,
just statistically speaking, usually are and went
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on to say we've tried and there
are a couple of things that so one
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a couple of things that grace said
that we botched. Yes, we did,
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and we're trying to make them better. A couple of things that grace
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said we did well. Don't get
arrogant, don't say we've done a couple
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of things well, so we're fine, because maybe we did a couple of
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things well, but we've got work
to do and so we're not going to
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go sit on our laurels after being
told that we did that, we did
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some things well. That is a
church that has a heart, that will
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be open to being a trauma a
more trauma informed church, because that's a
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church that says we're going to take
the black eye because we need to care
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for survivors, we're going to take
the black eye because we need to protect
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people and when we do get it
right, we're not going to brag about
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it, we're not going to boast
about it, we're not going to say
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great, we've arrived, we're going
to recognize that you never fully arrive and
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we're going to get back to work
because we know we still have work to
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do. Okay, we've got a
few more questions. How do we bring
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this to our church? Like how
do we bring being trauma informed to our
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churches? That is going to depend
a lot on your church. There are
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some churches where you mentioned it to
leaders and they're like sign me up.
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Um. Back in two thousand five
is the first time that I had a
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conversation with a pastor of mine,
Um and told him, look, I
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grew up in a church, yeah, that fostered abuse. We need to
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do a better job as a church, and here are a couple of ways
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that I think we can. And
my pastor immediately said, you're right,
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we do. How do we do
it, Um, and that that church
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actually ended up developing. We we
worked to develop a partnership with child protection
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services in the state of Minnesota,
Um, to raise awareness within the church
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and and to help meet the needs
of kids and families in the Child Protection
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System. Sometimes you get a pastor
like that where you say to the Church
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leadership, whether it's the pastor the
elder board, whoever it might be,
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this is something we have to do
and they immediately say yes, we do.
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What's our next step in a situation
like that? You can refer them
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to books such as books written by
Wade Mullen, books written by Diane Langberg,
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books like a church called Uh tove
Um, resources like rid of my
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disgrace, the cry of Tamar Um. If you go to the grace website,
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you'll see a number of other resources, resources that they can share,
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even with uh, to equip parents
and speaking to their kids. God made
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all of me. A book about
body safety rooted in an understanding of who
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God is and how God loves us. And and so now we can use
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that to help us protect our bodies. Um. So, if they're open
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to it, giving them resources,
resources like you'll find Um on the grace
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web page or on the Grace Youtube
page, where we have many videos,
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even up to our going over an
hour talking about abuse in churches and how
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churches can do a better job.
Um. So, helping them reach those
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resources. But you may have leadership
that, to one degree or another,
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is resistant. Some leaders are resistant
because they don't know and they don't know
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what they don't know. This is
not really covered very extensively in seminary um
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it's. In fact, in most
seminary programs it's hardly mentioned at all,
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and it may even be we have
this class and seminary so that you can
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be so that you can protect yourself
from all those false allegations that are going
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to come up, false allegations.
Yeah, yeah, so this is not
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something that is covered very well in
seminary. Grace has called for seminary reform.
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We need to have seminary reform,
but it very well could be that
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you are encountering resistance from your pastor
from the leaders of your church, because
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they just don't know and if they
know, then perhaps they'll be open to
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doing something. I would love to
have a conversation with any of those pastors.
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Um, send them our way.
Okay, Um, look at some
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of the resources that we have,
other resources that just will help them understand
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that this is a big deal,
that we need to do something about it.
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That can help chart a path forward. Yeah, the last question,
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well, I'm just gonna ask one
more question, Um, on top of
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the ones that I have written out. How has working against spiritual abuse affected
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your faith? Um, it's absolutely
impacted my faith. Um, I would
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say it has made me more skeptical
of faith leaders. It Um, but
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at the same time, being in
this work as giving me incredible encouragement as
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I see faith leaders do well.
M. It's impacted my faith because it's
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helped me realize that that that faith
is not about a person, but that
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faith is about Jesus, and so
it's really helped to cement that. Um.
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Because, let's be honest, if
some of the things that we see
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from Christian faith leaders actually Um are
about Christ actually are about what Christianity is,
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Um, I'll take a pass.
Thanks. So, I mean it's
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it's recognizing that it's not about those
people, but it's about Jesus. H.
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It's helped me to realize, Um, that if a person is struggling
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with staying involved in the church,
that's legitimate. That's not that they have
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weak faith, it's not that they
don't see the truth. Um, that's
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they're going through something that's real,
legitimate, um, that that's going through
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something that has basis in reality.
Um. It's helped my faith because it's
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helped me recognize the abuse that's out
there. But in my situation, aation.
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I'm not saying that this is a
realization that everybody should come to.
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But I'm saying in my situation,
as I've worked in this field more,
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I've realized more and more, oh
my gosh, I have been surrounded by
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abuse in the church my entire life. Even when I thought I was out
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of it, I was still surrounded
by it. And I'm not saying that
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I've been directly victimized my entire life. I'm not trying to, you know,
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take on and make my story more
dramatic or anything like that, but
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I mean even like you know,
so I talked about the church that I
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went to in elementary school and it
wasn't until years and years later that it
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dawned on me when I was in
middle school and high school, they knowingly
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let a sex offender who was sent
home from the mission field because he was
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having sex with boys be the dean
of men and take kids on missions trips
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to other countries. I'm not aware
of any abuse happening with people from that
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church or school on those missions trips. But you know what, it didn't
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click until years and years and years
later that, oh my goodness, I
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was in a situation that fostered opportunities
for abuse and so but in my particular
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situation. It has helped me see
that, even though I was surrounded by
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this Um, and I'm not saying
this as a Cliche, I know it's
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used as a cliche so much that
it sickens me, but I didn't walk
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through that alone, Um, and
I and I did walk through it feeling
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God's protection. And again, I'm
not saying that everybody needs to come to
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that point and I'm not saying,
Um, yeah, God was with me,
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so everything's fine, um. But
for for me, that is has
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been a part of my faith journey
is recognizing that and just more and more
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recognizing that this is so far beyond
anything I could do, just so far
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beyond there's no way that I'm that
that that I can do this. It's
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just it's just beyond me. Okay, Um, yeah, I guess my
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last question is, what do you
do for self care, because this has
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to take a toll on you and
all aspects of your life, your body,
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your mental health, your emotional health, your spiritual health. Sure,
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UM, so I'm not. I'm
not currently in therapy, but I've been
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in therapy before, Um, and
Um, highly, highly recommended. Um,
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even though I'm not in a formal
uh, therapy, going through formal
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therapy right now. I have,
Um, a person that I trust who
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is a pastor and a licensed mental
health professional, so that he's both,
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and we meet on a regular basis, um, because I believe, and
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then because of that, we're able
to go and look at things both from
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a spiritual perspective and Um, you
know, if there's a mental health component
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to it, Um, a trauma
component to it, Um, or anxiety
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or depression or whatever it might be. Um. Sometimes this work can get
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a person down. Um, um, but he's able to look at it
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from all those perspectives. Um,
and it's somebody that I trust, somebody
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that knows me, knows me well, Um, understands where I'm coming from.
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He actually happens to be, I
think, I think we would both
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acknowledge this. He happens to be
a good deal more conservative than I am,
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Um, but um is also real
comfortable with not having to push me
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to be, um, and real
comfortable with the fact that you don't have
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to be as conservative as he is
to love Jesus, Um, and so
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that that works well for us.
Um. Connecting with people is incredibly,
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incredibly important, um, whether it's
my wife, whether it's my kids.
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Um. I'm so blessed to have
a wife who is deep in the trenches
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of understanding what trauma is. She's
Um in in public health and focuses on
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working with marginalized populations who are dealing
with some pretty significant health care disparities and
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social determinants of health. And so
she is in the trenches and she gets
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it and that has been just an
incredible blessing to me. Um, that
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we're able to support each other.
In the heavy, heavy work that she's
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doing, I can be a support
to her and in the heavy work that
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I'm doing, she can be a
support to me. Um. Spending regular
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time in scripture is he essential for
me being comfortable to argue with God a
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little bit and to say God,
what the Heck Are you doing? Um.
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And he hasn't struck me with lightning
yet, and I don't say that
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out of DIS respect, I actually
say that out of respect because God's big
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enough to deal with my questions.
God's big enough to deal with my not
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getting what God's doing. Um.
And so the freedom to express those doubts,
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the freedom to express the frustration and
at times even God, I'm kind
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of angry that this happened and I'm
not just angry at the person that did
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it. I'm wanting to work through
the fact that I'm a bit angry at
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you right now for letting it happen, Um, and knowing that I can
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express that to God. I mean, it's like not a surprise to God
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if I'm angry at him right it's
not something that I've been able to successfully
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hide from God. Shu. I'm
glad he didn't realize I was angry,
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um, but just to be able
to openly talk to God about that,
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um as much as I can,
to get away, to take care of
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myself, to engage in things like
deep breathing exercise, Um. And then
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I think that this is also really
super important, um, for those of
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us who work with organizations that are
really trauma saturated. Whether that would be
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a church, whether that would be
victim advocacy, whether that would be a
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homeless shelter, whether that would be
a school, regardless of what it is,
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Um, as organizations we ask people
to put themselves in the line of
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fire. If we are knowingly asking
people to put themselves in the line of
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fire, as an organization, we
have a responsibility to help care for and
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protect them. And so it's also
recognizing, Um in part that grace has
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a responsibility towards me and I let
my board of directors know what what I
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need, Um, and I have
an incredible board of directors at grace.
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But it's also recognizing that, as
an organization, grace has a responsibility to
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every single staff person, whether they're
contracted or employed. Um. And if
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you're in a church, in a
school, in a victim advocacy organization and
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a homeless shelter, whatever, uh, it might be Um, to advocate
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for yourself with that organization because they
have a responsibility to care for you,
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because they're asking you to step into
the line of fire. Okay, Um,
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I guess you know anything else you
would like to add? That we
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not cuttered. Um, I can't
think of anything else off the top of
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my head. Are they just you
know, I've really appreciated the chance to
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have the conversation to talk about some
of these super, super important issues,
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Um, to talk a little bit
about grace too, and if anyone's interested,
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I hope they check out grace.
Check out Um, uh, you
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know, our website and other resources
that might be there. There are other
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great organizations, whether it would be
um sacred spaces, who does some incredible
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work, primarily in the Jewish faith
community. Um, and really encourage you
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to check out them, if you're
listening and you might happen to be in
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the Jewish faith community, as just
an unbelievable resource. Um. The Zero
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Abuse Project also does some incredible stuff, including a training called keeping faith that's
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coming up in October. It would
be great for people to attend Um and
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then checking out the resources that we've
got on our website at grace as well
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would be incredible. Okay, Um. Alright, guys, thanks for listening.
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Um. As always, uh,
follow us on your favorite social media
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platform and on your favorite podcast platform
and if you have any questions, always
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00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:30.720
reach out to Rachel and recovery at
UH WW Rachel and Recovery Dot Com. Thanks.
