Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hi, this is Rachel and I'm
recovering it. We got a special guest
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with us, Dr Annas Salter,
and she's going to tell us a little
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bit about ourself and we're going to
ask her some questions. This is Hanna
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Salter. I am a psychologist and
author. I've written three academic books and
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and five mysteries. I also do
a lot of training and I've been working
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in the field of sexual abuse for
close to forty years. And now,
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okay, Dr Anna is going to
answer some of these questions that are written
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up for her and she's going to
do our best to answer them. Okay,
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first questions easy. How did you
get into this work? Well,
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the odd thing is that when I
was in graduate school in the S I
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didn't have any courses and sexual abuse. Really everybody thought it wasn't a problem.
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Back then I was told that incest
was one in a million. I
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never even had a lecture in Child
Sexual Abuse or adult a sexual assault.
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Then when I got out of school
I went to work at a Clis community
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mental health center. Seemed to me
that every second child was sexually abuse,
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physically abused, neglected or emotionally abused, and I realized I didn't have the
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skills I need and so I started
trying to adapt the skills that I had
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in working with children with other kinds
of problems and adults, and that worked
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pretty well until the course started sending
sex offenders and I really knew, I
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believe, from the beginning, at
insight oriented therapy was not the right approach
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for sex offenders. So I got
a small grant from the state of Vermont.
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I ran around the country looking at
programs that had been treating sex offenders.
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Found one in Seattle, Washington,
that I thought very well of.
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The used polyglass graph and plythysmograph and
did not use insight or in it therapy.
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I started writing up my report and
it just kept getting bigger and bigger
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and it ended up my first book
treating child sex offenders and victims of practical
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God. After that I was kind
of stuck, as it were, because
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there were so few books at the
time that the book kind of went everywhere
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and I ended up training and Europe
and in Australia and New Zealand a bunch
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of other places on sex offenders.
Can you give us a little bit of
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history of the psychology and sexually abuse
well, when I wrote my first book,
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I look back to see what since
psychology had made of of sexual abuse,
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and we all know that Freud got
it right the first time. His
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women, his patients, women patients, reported high levels of sexual abuse and
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he gave a talk on it and
did not get the talk was not well
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received and he went back and decided
that women had made it up. These
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are all edible fantasies. So that
story is so widely none I didn't really
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go into that in the book,
but what I discovered that really surprised me
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was in this country in the last
century and a half, sexual abuse has
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largely been blamed on the victims.
Women were considered hysterical, they brought it
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on themselves. I was described as
a form of child acting out. The
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offenders were portrayed as the victims and
the children were betrayed as offenders. I've
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never really been able to make sense
of that. I've seen it over and
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over. I documented I read paper
after paper which took that point of view,
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but I can't tell you that I
understand it. I I never have.
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It seems so ridiculous to me,
but it's only really been in the
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beginning, in the late s and
s that victims were treated in any sense
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as victims. And even today victims
are frequently attacked as having made up the
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story to get back at someone or
having the story implanted, or they're simply
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confused or they have bad memories,
on and on. The attacks still go
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on now. I mean that's a
huge issue in our our country today.
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What do you find the most surprising
in your work with predators? Well,
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with all kinds of violence offenders,
the thing that's so surprising to me is
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they are not the masterminds people think
they are. Sex offenders come into varieties.
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There other tap roots, but they're
two big ones. And one tap
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root is these the people who are
just sexually attracted to children. They didn't
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choose it, they discovered it where
you think now it's a sexual orientation that
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those groups. That group can be
very successful in their lives, that can
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be college precedents or Nobel Prize winners
or Olympic coaches, on and on,
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and they just what's wrong is they're
sexually attracted to kids. They've got what
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I call a deviat motor. The
other group are those who are antisocial and
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they just don't care. They'll use
anybody. They other people are objects to
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them. Some of them will rape
adults and and molesque kids. So I
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spent a lot of years looking at
articles that had fifty seven circles and ovals
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about the origins of child sexual abuse. I came to the conclusion it's really
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very simple. It's like a car. There's a motor in a car.
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There's a motor in their breaks.
With sex offenders, with those who are
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sexually attracted to kids, there's a
problem. Is the motor part of the
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problem? Now, of course,
you can have a normal arousal pattern and
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still attack a kid for other reasons. So some of them don't have a
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devot motor, but all of them
have a failure of brakes. What keeps
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the rest of us from acting out
sexually and inappropriate ways is fear of consequences,
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common sense or moral code empathy.
Then you may think the sixteen year
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old babysitter is gorgeous, it doesn't
mean you're going to attack or the way
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home, you may think you may
be attracted to your wife sister. It
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doesn't mean that you're going to rape
her or even come on to her.
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We have control, cognitive controls.
Let's say to us. I don't think
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so. Not a good idea.
These guys have a defect in the controls,
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the breaks, and some of them
also have a defect in the motor.
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So most surprising thing for me is
it's a lot simpler than I think
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most people think. When dealing with
a domino case such as a three year
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old being sexually abused by a five
year old, or five year old being
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sexually used by abused by a nine
year old and a nine year old being
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sexually used by a thirteen year old
and a thirteen year old being sexually abused
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as an adult. What do you
think? What's going on in this situation?
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All are victims, but when do
the age of accountability or emotional competiti
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capability on victims become responsible for their
own actions? By adolescence these age groups.
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First of all, this happens lesson
people think. When we use polygraph
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back up the majority of adult sex
offenders, we're not. Do not say
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that they're abused as children. When
you don't use a polygraph and you just
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ask them, two thirds of them
say that they were sexually abused as kids
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and blame they're abusing other people on
their own molestation. So you have to
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remember that sex offenders are not always
transparent. But when little kids act out
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sexually, they it's and they were
sexually abused by someone or prematurely sexualized by
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another kid in some way. They're
usually it's like a form of post traumatic
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stress, remembering, except we have
memories and kids engage in play. Now,
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of course I'm distinguishing between abuse and
sex play between children. Would two
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kids of the same age get involved
in exploratory sex play? There may be
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no abuse involved at all. You
can tell the difference by whether one kid
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is significantly older one kid is manipulating
get into the seeds. A great kind
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of thing, or is that?
Well, people show me yours and I'll
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show you mine. Is Children exploring
their bodies and each other's bodies. Oral
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sex is a much more adult form
of of sexuality, but the kids who
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act out sexually are, with some
exceptions, generally recreative. If it's not
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normal sex play, if it's oral
sex, if it's penetration and so forth,
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they're usually recreating something and it is
a process of reliving it. But
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adolescents are older and they have the
capacity for cognitive breaks. Little kids also
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don't know that there's anything wrong with
the behavior typically, and adolescents do so.
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In spite of that, with Adolescence
Act out sexually it is it's more
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serious and and I would always put
an adolescent in treatment who would either use
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force with a peer or acted out
sexually with a younger child. Nonetheless,
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most adolescence, of vast majority who
act out sexually as teenagers did not do
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so as adults. There is a
big bulb of all kinds of crime and
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adolescent sexual crime, violent crime,
property crime, and the vast majority of
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that crime disappears when they transition too
adulthood. Adult sex offenders are a whole
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different thing that definitely need treatment and
in many cases confinement. Okay, do
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you think if caught early enough in
adolescence, that can make a difference through
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some predators? Oh absolutely. I
would definitely recommendary, but at the earliest
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stage possible. I think we are
much more hopeful about our about adolescent offenders.
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But one of the reasons is that
the comparatively speaking, they are few
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fewer adolescents who act out because they
are generically attracted to kids and more of
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them act out because they are juvenile
delinquents and they're engaging in other kinds of
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crime as well, and that tends
to resolve as they move, for the
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majority of them, as they reach
adulthood. So the sexual crime, when
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it's it's easier to treat, when
it's not based on a deviate preference for
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children. What do you think of
the story of law in his daughters and
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the way that was written? Start
the history of victim blaming? Well,
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I think it's definitely victim blame.
The victims are blamed for getting their father
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drunken having sex with him. However, I have no idea if it's the
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first episode. I have a cynical
suspicion that somewhere in a cave wall there's
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a depiction of sexual assault in which
the child is the aggressor. It seems
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to be a very old form of
massage, and so I don't know that
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it's the first instance, but it's
definitely an instance. Okay, how does
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situation of cult or incest situation differ
from sexual abuse from a teacher or someone
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outside of the family? For a
Predator? Well, for the victim,
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I think incest is is probably the
most devastating form of abuse. If you're
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abused by someone outside the home,
you can go home. No, I
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have safety. They don't have twenty
four hour a day access to you.
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If you are betrayed by a family
member, they do tend to have much
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more access to you over a longer
period of time. In terms of offenders,
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what the research shows is that they're
the majority of them are probably not
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generically aroused by children. About half
of them are also molesting outside the home
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and that's the group that's more likely
to have a death deviant preference. But
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many incest offenders offend not because they
have a generic attraction to five year alls,
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but because they feel entitled. As
one offender said to me, my
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home is my castle, I'll do
what I goddamn will please. Had offenders
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say, this was actually a female
offender, say I brought them into this
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world and I can take them out
of it. And she did beat her
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preschool children unconscious regularly. So it's
entitlement. Sometimes it's revenge. You cant
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espouse she had, she had an
affair, so I got back at her
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by molesting her daughter or our daughter. That doesn't make a lot of sense
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to most of us, but that's
actually a very frequent thing for offenders to
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say. So it may be revenge, it may be pouting. You won't
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have sex as me. If you'd
had sex as me, I wouldn't have
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had to have sex with susie.
They're a lot of other motivations that are
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involved in incests. Then there are
typically an out of home offending, since
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there is pedophilia, and the genetic
component is there all. Is that also
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a part of incest for those who
act upon their pedophea inside of their families?
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What the research is showing that an
attraction to kids appears to have a
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genetic basis in some cases, or
at least congenital. In other words,
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you're born with it. You don't
have to be abused whatever, you just
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when you're eleven to thirteen and you
get interested in sex, you thinking about
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little kids and not necessarily peers or
older adults. But, as I said,
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many incest offenders molest for other reasons
and title month power and control,
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revenge, and we don't there's no
research I'm aware of that suggests that those
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offenders, that that type of offending
has a genetic basis. Okay, can
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you tell us a little bit of
difference between Pedophilia and just a sexual abusure.
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I think we've pretty much hit that, but if there's anything else you'd
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like to add? Yes, there
there is really a lot of people equate
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pedophilia with, say, child molesting, and the the truth is pedophilia just
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means that you're sexually attracted to children. He doesn't mean that you act on
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it. So there are very likely
people out there is who are sexually attracted
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to kids who don't act on it
because they're horrified by it. And there
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are also molesters who moleste kids who
are not generically attracted to that particular age
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group. There's a lot of overlap, of course. It's like a ven
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diagram. There are some pedophiles who
don't offend, a lot of pedophiles who
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do offend, and then there are
child molesters who aren't pedophiles but they still
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offend. And this is important because, for example, in the Woody Allen
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case, one of the defenses for
Alan was, well, no other children
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have come forward, so he didn't
molest his daughter Dylan. Well, he
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may not be a pedophile and he
may still have molested. In fact,
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I think they evidence is pretty compelling
that he did molest his daughter Dylan.
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It may not have come from a
generic attraction to kids. May Have come
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from dynamics of wanting to get back
at me, of Pharaoh or some other,
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some other reason. Is Obsession with
Dylan from the time she was born,
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whatever. But we need to make
a distinction between being attracted to children
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and acting on it. Fair enough. Can you tell us a little bit
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about sadists? You mentioned those and
that's, you know, a whole different
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level. I feel like it is
a whole different level. Most sad is
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attack adults. Sattis are people who
are sexually aroused by pain, suffering,
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terror and humiliation. I think if
most of us saw a child or an
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adult being tortured, we would throw
up it. It's it's a nightmarish thought
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to even see something like that.
For these guys, they get high that,
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they tell me, is better than
crack, better than cocaine. I've
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had people say that more than once. They get a even those who can
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also get Ed, can ejaculate to
consensual sex would tell me that the high
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is greater and that the thrill is
greater and it lasts longer when they are
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hurting or controlling so someone or torturing
or making them suffer. Does that kind
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of get into the fifty shades a
great kind of thing, or is that?
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People do ask what's the difference in
people who joined S and M clubs
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and people who abduct strangers? The
difference is probably the level of psychopathy,
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in other words how much of a
conscience they have. We do have people
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who are turned on by pain and
inflixing pain. I don't personally think that's
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healthy, but there are people who
are turned on by it, but they
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have enough of a conscience that they
only engage in that behavior with people who
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agree to it and they they have
a fetal safe word that the person says
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and they stop the activities. They're
not going to jump out of a Bush
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at anybody because they are they have
too much of a conscience. And when
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you get, for example, sadistic
killers, they are almost inevitably psychopaths and
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sadists they don't have a conscience.
Okay, AH, speaking of Psycho sociopaths,
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can you tell us a little bit
about those? Well, we don't
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use the term sociopaths so much anymore
because people used it in two different ways.
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Some people used it to refer to
people who are antisocial. They may
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be in a gang. They may
have loyalty to the gang or to their
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relatives or to somebody, but not
to the larger society. They didn't buy
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to the social contract. So though, rob and Mog whatever, you and
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I, but they have the capacity
for loyalty. Other people used it to
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mean psychopaths, people who don't have
any loyalty to anyone. They these are
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the people. These are always the
people who snitche in prison. Are they
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actual psychopaths? So usually refer.
I usually call them psychopaths so people are
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clear what I'm saying. And they
are. That definitely Haz a genetic component
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and their brains seem to work differently
from other people's brains in an inner variety
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of ways. They don't have a
conscience. Now they're not. It's still
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different from being a satists because as
psychopath does whatever they want. But they
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may not have any interest in torturing
anyone. They may be checked forgers,
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they may be somebody who who sets
up a ponty scheme, if for stocks.
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They just don't care who they hurt, but it's in the service of
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what they get, of what they
want, whatever it is, whether it's
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rape or whether it's money or or
whether it's the thrill of fooling people.
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It's satist. Do the point for
Sadist is the Hurd that. That's the
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point is so that the two groups
are different, but you don't really want
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to run into either one of them
if you can help it. Fair enough.
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I've got a few more questions.
was trying to get them through them
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pretty quickly. Those who have trauma
bonds with their abus and have wanted to
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repair their relationships with their abeus.
Have you ever seen a healthy repair within
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a family? Yes, I really
have. Better's rare. I had,
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for example, an offender who molested
his twelve year old daughter and he kept
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leaving the he kept moving out the
house and he would say to his wife,
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I don't understand, I can't stay
here, I just can't stay here.
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You don't understand. And he moved
back in. He went into treatment,
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he cooperated with treatment and one of
the things we did, Gosh,
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one of the things we did was
identify a mood he gets in before he
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abuses of isolation and feeling sorry for
himself and things like that, and his
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wife would call and say he's in
that mood again. I'm bringing him in
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it. And I saw another guy
who molested his grandchildren and and didn't he
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actually he didn't even get an attorney. He said to the judge, I
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hope you send me to prison.
Maybe I can make up in some small
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way for what I've done. So
but it but frankly, it is rare.
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It in general people think way too
much, not way too much.
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They only think about whether the offender
is going to reoffend. They don't realize
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is for many victims they're never going
to not be afraid if he's in the
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house. So it's retraumatizing for many
victims and their mental health suffers. That's
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a separate issue from whether he's going
to reoffend. Well, and the other
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thing is, I mean when your
trauma bonded. I mean I'm a prime
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example of this. I mean I
was actually used by my dad and I
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mean I was very much bonded to
him. He was the guy who protected
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me from my mom because she was
a borderline in mordline rage is real and
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it can be very devastating for a
child and you know he in a lot
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of ways was my protector from all
of that. Yeah, really, I
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didn't address the trauma bomb part it
is true that many children are put in
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situations where the offender actually offers more
protection then the nonoffending parent made. That
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was in the case of the woman
who would beat her children unconscious of as
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she let men come in the House
and offend them. They were inevitably kinder
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to the children than then she actually
was. And this the trauma bond issue
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is important. It's really important because
judges wills will use it sometimes. was
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she wants to see her father,
she wants to go back with her father
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as an indication that the guy isn't
risky, and that's a totally different issue,
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because he has gotta is twisted this
child into caring about him, and
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children are open hearted and they're,
frankly, easy to manipulate. Doesn't mean
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that he is any less guilty.
So I wish judges knew more about the
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concept of trauma bonding than they do. Some offenders, even in situations for
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the non offending spouse is not abusive, some offender of fenders are very good
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at getting kids to love and to
trust them. That's their entire operation.
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That's how they that's how they get
access to kits and because they're successful in
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that we should understand that they're more
risky, not less risky. Yeah,
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now I can see that. What
do you find the most difficult when dealing
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with the Rose Collar colored glasses society? Yeah, I wrote chapter in my
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book about Rose Colored Glasses and people
have all these sayings to make themselves feel
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safe. You know, everything turns
out for the best. I have a
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guardian angel. People are very trusting. And the odd thing is I've wrote
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a chapter and, Sadist I wrote
chapter on what I called Rose colored classes.
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I thought everybody would be upset about
the chapter and say it is this.
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Frankly, it's a horrible chapter in
terms of the descriptions of what some
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of these people do, and I
never got any complaints about it. But
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I had hate mail over the chapter
on rose colored glasses. You just want
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us to go around being depressed.
One person in the field I sent it
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to said I would never recommend your
book to anybody. She said because I
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have a neighbor who I have a
neighbor who doesn't lock their doors. She
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says, if I don't lock my
doors they may rob me one day,
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but if I lock my door they
robbed me every day. I'm usually pretty
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calm about responding to emails, but
I that really annoyed the heck out of
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me and I wrote her back and
said if we were just talking about a
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VCR you might have a point,
but we're talking about the health and safety
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of our children and we can't afford
your kind of denial. And I believe
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that. I believe that parents have
to be aware, that teachers, coaches,
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that this just a tremendous amount of
sexual abuse in society. And I
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end a book by talking about the
fact that when my kids were little,
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I was the parent on the sidelines
with the lounger and the baseball cap.
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You know, I was at the
practices. I learned to score baseball so
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I had have an excuse for hanging
around the team. I was the team
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manager or whatever role parents got in
so many activities that win my son was
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a senior in the baseball coach asked
the team for recommendation for which parent would
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do it. Five kids raise their
hands and recommended me instead of their own
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parents. But I felt those were
the risky situations and parents just assume that
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they can drop their kids off with
at practice. Nothing's going to happen.
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I don't people are too trusting.
Yeah, now, you're completely right about
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that. What do you do for
Selfcare, because all of this has to
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be emotionally taxing. I live in
the mountains at ninety three hundred feet.
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I take pictures of bears when I
can find them. Actually several showed up
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on my deck, so they were
too hard to find. I do wildlife
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photography. I wrote the mysteries,
just because the good guys always win.
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One speaker I heard said her advice
for people in the field about having a
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about a personal life was have one. This is not I do this work,
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but this is not my whole life. I write, I take pictures,
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I hike it hour and a half
to two hours a day. I
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ride horses. This is what I
do, but I try not to get
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sucked into the world, the whirlpool, and I have to have that balance.
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Last question. How how is doing
this work impacted your faith? Faith?
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Yes, I don't have any.
Okay, I I believe. I
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guess the faith that's the closest for
me is Buddhism, because they speak of
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compassion, unkindness. I've just been
an expert witness in too many Catholic Church
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cases, Protestant Church cases. I've
got a Jehovah's Witness Case Right now.
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You may not know or you may
that in the Jehovah's Witnesses there have to
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be two witnesses or someone is not
believe. So if the it's open season
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on children, as long as the
perpetrator doesn't confess, he has to confess
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or someone else has to see it
or the child is not believed. So
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as far as organized religion goes,
I I'm sorry, I'm just not a
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fan. I've seen too many abuses
in all of the major religions. I
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completely understand that. Okay. Well, thank you for your time and maybe
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we can interview another time it and
another day about something else related to this
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course. And thank you for your
work. I think it's really important and
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I always admire people who turn trauma
into it to something that helps other people.
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So work like the work you're doing
is very, very much appreciated.
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Thank you. Okay, all right, guys, thanks for listening. Tune
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in next Thursday and, as always, you can follow us on social media
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when listen to us on your favorite
podcast platform. Thanks
